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<blockquote data-quote="Timespike" data-source="post: 9675665" data-attributes="member: 29665">I think the heroism peaked at 4e and at least dipped for 5e. A5E also has less-fogiving rules about survival and massive damage, lower player ability scores overall, and removed a fair bit of the &quot;nova potential&quot; that came with things like the O5E versions of divine smite, the coffeelock, and so on.There's also a bit of tension between &quot;more options and crunch&quot; and &quot;fast and deadly.&quot; If PC death is on the table every time someone reaches for a d20, character creation should be fast to avoid the players going &quot;eff this.&quot; And in a system like A5E, it's not quick. Even a first-level character can take an hour. And when character creation takes an hour, people are going to want to keep that PC around for a while, understandably, because of the amount of metagame work they've had to put in.Now, I get that there are some that will say that's exactly why the character creation should be simpler, at which point my answer is that what you are looking for is Shadowdark, OSE, Swords &amp; Wizardry, Castles &amp; Crusades, or any of the other well-regarded OSR games with large followings.But if you and your group want A5E's granularity and customization mixed with swift and unpredictable death and you have the patience for the repeated character creation doing that requires, that's a niche implementation, but it's not the first time I've heard it, and that's also why I wasn't being sarcastic about a toolkit for a more nasty and lethal version of 5e/O5E probably being a commercially-viable product. There's clearly at least a small-but-vocal core of people looking to do that style of play here on the forums, which means there are probably more out there in the general customer sphere.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Timespike, post: 9675665, member: 29665"] I think the heroism peaked at 4e and at least dipped for 5e. A5E also has less-fogiving rules about survival and massive damage, lower player ability scores overall, and removed a fair bit of the "nova potential" that came with things like the O5E versions of divine smite, the coffeelock, and so on. There's also a bit of tension between "more options and crunch" and "fast and deadly." If PC death is on the table every time someone reaches for a d20, character creation should be [I]fast[/I] to avoid the players going "eff this." And in a system like A5E, it's not quick. Even a first-level character can take an hour. And when character creation takes an hour, people are going to want to keep that PC around for a while, understandably, because of the amount of metagame work they've had to put in. Now, I get that there are some that will say that's exactly why the character creation should be simpler, at which point my answer is that what you are looking for is Shadowdark, OSE, Swords & Wizardry, Castles & Crusades, or any of the other well-regarded OSR games with large followings. But if you and your group want A5E's granularity and customization mixed with swift and unpredictable death [I]and[/I] you have the patience for the repeated character creation doing that requires, that's a niche implementation, but it's not the first time I've heard it, and that's also why I wasn't being sarcastic about a toolkit for a more nasty and lethal version of 5e/O5E probably being a commercially-viable product. There's clearly at least a small-but-vocal core of people looking to do that style of play here on the forums, which means there are probably more out there in the general customer sphere. [/QUOTE]

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