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<blockquote data-quote="Ralif Redhammer" data-source="post: 8299811" data-attributes="member: 30438">When I was playing back in the day (starting in the mid 80s, so later than you), everyone I and everyone else I played with ruled that thieves were the only ones that could attempt these abilities, unless specifically stated, like certain racial abilities. Once thieves were a defined class, looking at the text in 0e's Greyhawk supplement, Basic, 1e, and 2e, the assumption appears to be that thieves are the only ones that can do these things, other than those few specified exceptions. Nowhere is it called out that these are abilities that stack on top of ability checks, for nigh-impossible tasks.I think also by the time I started gaming, the rules were more crystalized and codified, so your earlier experience, in turn informed by an even earlier one, would be different.Ugh, that long list of skills in 3e drove me up a wall! Leveling up 3e/Pathfinder skills were always agonizing bean-counting for me.As with so much in earlier editions, there was a lot of DM adjudication, because of rules that were ambiguous or contradictory. One DM might rule that only thieves with thieves tools could pick a lock, another might say &quot;eh, roll under your dex score with a -4 penalty and see what happens.&quot; Which would make thieves even worse - Imagine a first level fighter with a Dex of 13. They would need to roll a nine or better, which would be a 45% chance to the first level thief's (assume human with a dex of 18) 40% chance.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ralif Redhammer, post: 8299811, member: 30438"] When I was playing back in the day (starting in the mid 80s, so later than you), everyone I and everyone else I played with ruled that thieves were the only ones that could attempt these abilities, unless specifically stated, like certain racial abilities. Once thieves were a defined class, looking at the text in 0e's Greyhawk supplement, Basic, 1e, and 2e, the assumption appears to be that thieves are the only ones that can do these things, other than those few specified exceptions. Nowhere is it called out that these are abilities that stack on top of ability checks, for nigh-impossible tasks. I think also by the time I started gaming, the rules were more crystalized and codified, so your earlier experience, in turn informed by an even earlier one, would be different. Ugh, that long list of skills in 3e drove me up a wall! Leveling up 3e/Pathfinder skills were always agonizing bean-counting for me. As with so much in earlier editions, there was a lot of DM adjudication, because of rules that were ambiguous or contradictory. One DM might rule that only thieves with thieves tools could pick a lock, another might say "eh, roll under your dex score with a -4 penalty and see what happens." Which would make thieves even worse - Imagine a first level fighter with a Dex of 13. They would need to roll a nine or better, which would be a 45% chance to the first level thief's (assume human with a dex of 18) 40% chance. [/QUOTE]

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