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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6252525" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I'm pretty familiar with Pathfinder but I haven't ever run a game so I'm not familiar with its encounter budget system.  However, I can speak to the CR and ECL system and 4e's encounter budgeting system.  The two are different to each other in the extreme for multiple reasons.  The primary reason that the 3.x system becomes increasingly unwieldy is due to the fighter vs spellcaster issue.  As the system scales, spellcaster levels become disproportionately powerful when compared to monster HD and/or martial levels.  The CR system and the ECL system work off the premise that they are equal.  As a result, after about level 7 or so things start go off-kilter.  By level 11, its dead-man-walking.  Shortly thereafter the system has flat-lined. There are other issues as well (such as innate spell-like abilities or innate sorcery not being properly quantified) but that is the primary one.  4e encounter budgeting suffers from no such ails.  Its predictive functionality is considerably more bounded.  Depending on group makeup and number of PCs, you're probably moving level n combats to level n + 1 by early paragon, n + 2 by late paragon/early epic, to n + 3/4 by late epic after the "come back from the dead" abilities are gained.Yeah.  Its frustrating.  There are so many posts that I'd like to acknowledge with a courteous + 1 or xp but I don't want to litter threads.  Yup.  I agree on all fronts here.  The philosophical similarities were what I was driving at primarily.  It seems to aim at producing the expectant play of those editions even if some (key) mechanical odds and ends are slightly askew.I'm still puzzled by the implementation of HD.  As it stands now, they don't remotely function in the way that makes Healing Surges a staple of 4e play.  Mostly, they just seem to annoy most camps and make 4e detractors decry them for (inexplicably) being too 4eish (when they don't remotely fit the bill).  In play, they basically seem to be a mundane answer to the effect on play of the proliferation of Cure Light Wounds wands (extending the work day/week for martial characters who are dependent upon HPs and thus reducing the pressure on Cleric's spell load-out being resigned to healing).  I think if the effects of their default assumption on the system can truly have all vestiges of it removed from play + highly functional exploration mechanics and dungeon building tools + punitive SoD/S effects on monsters and traps/hazards + accrued gold as XP + solid, streamlining of classes (where they each perform well in their niche with no customization required) where you can make a guy in 5 minutes...then I think that a reasonable analogue for pawn stance, disposable PC play where you get together with buddies for an evening of old school dungeon crawls can probably be accomplished.  The saving throw system is key here though (and it was still borked last time I checked in).</blockquote>

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