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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
What changes aren't being made in 4E that you think should be
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<blockquote data-quote="Greg K" data-source="post: 3969860" data-attributes="member: 5038"><p>What would I have wanted in addition to removal of Christmas tree syndrome </p><p></p><p>1) Fewer absolutes as per Sean Reynold's web article</p><p></p><p>2) Races: remove the non-biological functions</p><p></p><p>3) add cultural/environmental skill packages. The player chooses a package (or DM assigns packages to cultures if homebrewing a setting) that are added to race and provide a few skill ranks, a feat, and proficiency in a weapon (or second feat), common to all members of the culture. </p><p></p><p>4) Occupations per d20 Modern, but for a fantasy setting</p><p></p><p>5) Classes </p><p>- remove most class features like armor and starting weapons as automatic standard class features and give each class additional bonus feats for 1st level characters. Armor and weapons would be among the bonus feat choices for certain classes at first level. </p><p></p><p>and give bonus feats and talents choices for each class. A wizard choosing fighter as a new class could choose a weapon, an armor, or another combat feat rather than learnng all weapons and armor just by taking a level in the class</p><p></p><p>- classes use the poor save progression with the class taken as a first level character providing a one time bonus (or bonuses)</p><p></p><p>- every class gets minimum of 4 + int bonus skill points per level (x4 at first level)</p><p></p><p>- as for the classes themselves, either one of the following: </p><p></p><p>5a) 6 generic classes</p><p>- Adept: choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine, Spirit) or charisma (Innate, Psionics, Ki) for spellcasting. Ex. priests, psychics, shaman's sorcerer, wizards, </p><p></p><p>- Expert: ex. cat burglars, nobles, scholars, spies, </p><p></p><p>- Warrior: barbarian warriors, duelists, gladiators, soldiers</p><p></p><p>- Martial Adept: blends aspects of Warrior and Adept with bard spell progression. choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine) or charisma (Inate) for spellcasting: Ex. Battle sorcerers, Paladins, Rangers</p><p></p><p>- Physical Adept: blends aspects of Expert and Adept with bard spell progression. choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine) or charisma (Inate) for spellcasting: Ex, bards, monks, niinja</p><p></p><p>- ? : Blends Martial and Expert role: ex. swashbucklers, martial rogues</p><p></p><p>or </p><p></p><p>5b) keep current class list. Make some changes and add some class variants and a couple of new classes</p><p></p><p>Barbarian</p><p>class variant: barbarian hunter (UA), urban barbarian</p><p></p><p>Bard</p><p>- focus spells on illusions and mind control</p><p>class variants: </p><p>- Bardic Sage (UA): as per UA</p><p>- Divine Bard (UA): as per UA, but also gains healing spells on the bard's list</p><p>- Savage Bard (UA), as per UA</p><p>- Skald : a non casting bard with fighter bonus feats when new spell level would be gained and maybe a better hit die</p><p>- troubador: gains bonus spells with bluffing, escape and movement</p><p></p><p>Cleric: </p><p>- lower hit die to d6</p><p>- leather armor only</p><p>- more skill points</p><p>- divine grace as per paladin</p><p>- turn rebuke as paladin (unless received as a domain ability)</p><p>- bonus divine feats or abilities based on domains every 5 levels </p><p>- spontaneous divine casting</p><p>- smaller spell lists based on deity's domains + spells for the following: augury/communing, blessing the faithful, cursing/punishing heretics and enemies (e.g., bestow curse, mark of justice) and planar ally (specific creatures associated with the deity), </p><p>- lower spell power at higher levels with non-spellcasters</p><p>- class variants: cloistered cleric (UA), martial cleric (better hit die and armor)</p><p></p><p>Druid</p><p>- spontaneous divine casting</p><p>- lower spell power at higher levels with non-spellcasters</p><p></p><p>Fighter</p><p>- class variant Thug (UA)</p><p></p><p>Paladins</p><p>- remove some abiities and give bards spell progression at first level</p><p>- class variant: the spellless paladin variant (Complete Champion)</p><p></p><p>Ranger</p><p>- remove some abilities and give bards spell progression at first level</p><p>- class variants: the spellless ranger variant f(Complete Champion), urban ranger (UA)</p><p></p><p>Rogue</p><p>-class variants: Martial Rogue (UA), Wilderness Rogue (UA)</p><p></p><p>Sorcerer</p><p>- additional class skill: Use Magical Device</p><p>- either both diplomacy and intimidate being class skills or the choice of substituting one for Bluff</p><p>- eschew materials at first level</p><p>- Bonus Metamagic feat at 5th level and every five additional levels</p><p>- Spell points w/ vitalizing (UA)</p><p>- lower spell power at higher levels to balance with non-spellcasters</p><p>class variants: battle sorcerer (UA)</p><p></p><p>Wizard</p><p>- lower spell power at higher levels to balance with non-spellcasters </p><p></p><p>Wizard Speicialists</p><p>- UA Specialist Wizard variant abilities become core</p><p>- - lower spell power at higher levels to balance with non-spellcasters</p><p></p><p>Introduce new classes</p><p>Martial Artist: non-mystical unarmed fighter</p><p>Monk Priest: as the OA shaman, with variants for arcane and divine </p><p>Shaman: done as green Ronin's Shaman class</p><p>Witch: done as green ronin's witch class</p><p></p><p>6) Weapon Groups from UA</p><p></p><p>7) Action Points</p><p></p><p>8) Skills</p><p>- Expanded Uses for skills collected from Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild</p><p></p><p>9) Feats</p><p>a) Make core the following</p><p>- weapon style feats</p><p>- divine feats (excluding divine metamagic)</p><p></p><p>b) replace Improved Unarmed Strike with the brawl, combat ma, and defensive ma trees from d20 Modern</p><p></p><p>c) remove natural spell</p><p></p><p>10) Combat</p><p>- class based defense bonus</p><p>- armor as dr</p><p>- Book of Iron Might style rules for combat maneuvers</p><p>- hit points: Either </p><p></p><p>a) Remove them and replace with True20 Toughness Save ; or </p><p></p><p>b) keep hit points with the following</p><p>- 10+ con bonus hit points at first level and less hit points gained at each level (class based defense would reduce getting hit and dr from armor would reduce damage taken</p><p></p><p>- penalties when at 50% and 25% of hit points remaining hit points</p><p></p><p>- death and dying rules (UA): no more negative hit points. At O hit points start making saves to avoid falling unconcious, dying stabilize and death.</p><p></p><p>11) Magic</p><p>Divine Magic: I think spell levels per times a day good for prayers answered by the gods. So the only change I would want are: </p><p>- Spontaneous Divine Casting (UA): </p><p>- rework domain spell lists to incorporate new spellls that better fit the domains</p><p></p><p>- Arcane casting: I dislikethe current system. My choices:</p><p>a) Elements of Magic rME (for arcane) and Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook (or Psionics)</p><p>b) Spell points with vitalizing (UA) for arcane</p><p></p><p>12) Magic Item creation</p><p>- new rules get rid of experience point expenditure</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Greg K, post: 3969860, member: 5038"] What would I have wanted in addition to removal of Christmas tree syndrome 1) Fewer absolutes as per Sean Reynold's web article 2) Races: remove the non-biological functions 3) add cultural/environmental skill packages. The player chooses a package (or DM assigns packages to cultures if homebrewing a setting) that are added to race and provide a few skill ranks, a feat, and proficiency in a weapon (or second feat), common to all members of the culture. 4) Occupations per d20 Modern, but for a fantasy setting 5) Classes - remove most class features like armor and starting weapons as automatic standard class features and give each class additional bonus feats for 1st level characters. Armor and weapons would be among the bonus feat choices for certain classes at first level. and give bonus feats and talents choices for each class. A wizard choosing fighter as a new class could choose a weapon, an armor, or another combat feat rather than learnng all weapons and armor just by taking a level in the class - classes use the poor save progression with the class taken as a first level character providing a one time bonus (or bonuses) - every class gets minimum of 4 + int bonus skill points per level (x4 at first level) - as for the classes themselves, either one of the following: 5a) 6 generic classes - Adept: choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine, Spirit) or charisma (Innate, Psionics, Ki) for spellcasting. Ex. priests, psychics, shaman's sorcerer, wizards, - Expert: ex. cat burglars, nobles, scholars, spies, - Warrior: barbarian warriors, duelists, gladiators, soldiers - Martial Adept: blends aspects of Warrior and Adept with bard spell progression. choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine) or charisma (Inate) for spellcasting: Ex. Battle sorcerers, Paladins, Rangers - Physical Adept: blends aspects of Expert and Adept with bard spell progression. choose intelligence (Arcane), wisdom (Divine) or charisma (Inate) for spellcasting: Ex, bards, monks, niinja - ? : Blends Martial and Expert role: ex. swashbucklers, martial rogues or 5b) keep current class list. Make some changes and add some class variants and a couple of new classes Barbarian class variant: barbarian hunter (UA), urban barbarian Bard - focus spells on illusions and mind control class variants: - Bardic Sage (UA): as per UA - Divine Bard (UA): as per UA, but also gains healing spells on the bard's list - Savage Bard (UA), as per UA - Skald : a non casting bard with fighter bonus feats when new spell level would be gained and maybe a better hit die - troubador: gains bonus spells with bluffing, escape and movement Cleric: - lower hit die to d6 - leather armor only - more skill points - divine grace as per paladin - turn rebuke as paladin (unless received as a domain ability) - bonus divine feats or abilities based on domains every 5 levels - spontaneous divine casting - smaller spell lists based on deity's domains + spells for the following: augury/communing, blessing the faithful, cursing/punishing heretics and enemies (e.g., bestow curse, mark of justice) and planar ally (specific creatures associated with the deity), - lower spell power at higher levels with non-spellcasters - class variants: cloistered cleric (UA), martial cleric (better hit die and armor) Druid - spontaneous divine casting - lower spell power at higher levels with non-spellcasters Fighter - class variant Thug (UA) Paladins - remove some abiities and give bards spell progression at first level - class variant: the spellless paladin variant (Complete Champion) Ranger - remove some abilities and give bards spell progression at first level - class variants: the spellless ranger variant f(Complete Champion), urban ranger (UA) Rogue -class variants: Martial Rogue (UA), Wilderness Rogue (UA) Sorcerer - additional class skill: Use Magical Device - either both diplomacy and intimidate being class skills or the choice of substituting one for Bluff - eschew materials at first level - Bonus Metamagic feat at 5th level and every five additional levels - Spell points w/ vitalizing (UA) - lower spell power at higher levels to balance with non-spellcasters class variants: battle sorcerer (UA) Wizard - lower spell power at higher levels to balance with non-spellcasters Wizard Speicialists - UA Specialist Wizard variant abilities become core - - lower spell power at higher levels to balance with non-spellcasters Introduce new classes Martial Artist: non-mystical unarmed fighter Monk Priest: as the OA shaman, with variants for arcane and divine Shaman: done as green Ronin's Shaman class Witch: done as green ronin's witch class 6) Weapon Groups from UA 7) Action Points 8) Skills - Expanded Uses for skills collected from Complete Adventurer and Races of the Wild 9) Feats a) Make core the following - weapon style feats - divine feats (excluding divine metamagic) b) replace Improved Unarmed Strike with the brawl, combat ma, and defensive ma trees from d20 Modern c) remove natural spell 10) Combat - class based defense bonus - armor as dr - Book of Iron Might style rules for combat maneuvers - hit points: Either a) Remove them and replace with True20 Toughness Save ; or b) keep hit points with the following - 10+ con bonus hit points at first level and less hit points gained at each level (class based defense would reduce getting hit and dr from armor would reduce damage taken - penalties when at 50% and 25% of hit points remaining hit points - death and dying rules (UA): no more negative hit points. At O hit points start making saves to avoid falling unconcious, dying stabilize and death. 11) Magic Divine Magic: I think spell levels per times a day good for prayers answered by the gods. So the only change I would want are: - Spontaneous Divine Casting (UA): - rework domain spell lists to incorporate new spellls that better fit the domains - Arcane casting: I dislikethe current system. My choices: a) Elements of Magic rME (for arcane) and Green Ronin's Psychic Handbook (or Psionics) b) Spell points with vitalizing (UA) for arcane 12) Magic Item creation - new rules get rid of experience point expenditure [/QUOTE]
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