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What classes do you want added to 5e?
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<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 6723599" data-attributes="member: 6787650"><p>If you can Disarm a normal greatsword with a dagger (perhaps by striking at the hand holding the greatsword), why couldn't you Disarm a triple-size Greatsword (much smaller than a telephone pole in my neighborhood) with a greatsword? There's a reason why Push maneuvers are size-restricted and Disarm is not. If the DM disallows it during combat after introducing it, that's on him, in the same way that it's on him if he refuses to allow Evasion vs. dragon breath because "there's nowhere to hide." It's not germane to the discussion of what tactics are available to the class as written, it's more of a playstyle issue with how your DM runs his game. </p><p></p><p>I already discussed what happens if he tries to grab it back from you ("pick it up again"). That costs him time, and time is on your side because the other PCs are busy killing him while you fight over his sword. And you have an inherent advantage in the contest over his sword because you have more attacks--and your advantage is even more pronounced if the Warlock has him Hexed. <strong>Edit:</strong> see retraction below.</p><p></p><p>If he tries to attack you barehanded or with a boulder, great! That's what defensive fighting is all about. Instead of taking 6d6+7 (28) damage per hit, you'll take 3d1+7 (10) unarmed or 3d4+7 (14) with the improvised boulder. He can try to chuck boulders instead, but he'll have disadvantage because you're within 5' of him, and he only gets one boulder attack per turn instead of two with the greatsword, and he only has 2-5 boulders per MM guidelines. You've pulled his teeth, allowing you to defeat him with less loss. That's tactics right there.</p><p></p><p>I disagree that merely having more discrete abilities is a good foundation for outside-the-box thinking. I certainly don't see any evidence that the plethora of discretized abilities in 5E encourages players to use the existing abilities outside the box. No one that I've ever heard of tries to use Smite to enhance his Disarm attempt, or to Rage as part of his attempt to Intimidate. Instead, the highly-specific nature of the abilities encourages players and DMs to keep them in their little mental boxes: Smite enhances damage and that's it, and using it on anything else is illegal. On the other hand, a generic ability like the fighter's multiple Extra Attacks interacts in rich and rewarding ways with rules features which leverage Extra Attacks, such as Disarming, to make the fighter much, much better at those things than anybody else. You get a geometric increase in tactical depth without combinatoric increase in complexity, the way you would with discretized powers.</p><p></p><p>Think of it this way: there's a (bonus) action economy in 5E, and there's a concentration economy, and there's a gold economy, and there's a reaction economy, and there's an attack economy. Paladins, rangers, and barbarians can be pretty good at the attack economy, but the fighter excels, so if there's something you want the fighter to excel at, tie it to the attack economy. So far that's what 5E has done with most combat options; although a few of them are tied to the movement or action economies instead. (I'm looking at you, Overrun/Athletics, Disengage/Cunning Action and Dodge/Patient Defense.) And because the fighter has a great attack economy, he can make things economical that the paladin can't, such as pushing someone prone and then Power Attacking them twice before retreating, which basically trades two Power Attacks at advantage for one opportunity attack at disadvantage. That doesn't work so well when you've only got two attacks.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>Edit/Retraction: </strong>BTW, the DMG Disarm already incorporates advantage/disadvantage mechanics for two-handed weapons and size, which I had forgotten about when I estimated 80% earlier, and which should also assuage your concerns about disarming a giant sword. It will be quite difficult unless Hex is involved. The giant has advantage on his Athletics check because he's larger than you, and you have disadvantage on your attack roll because he's using it two-handed. Since he's already got +2 Athletics relative to you, even with your three attacks you might not prevail. Unless someone has him Hexed, <strong>Disarm might be a losing strategy after all</strong>, compared to Dodge. But Dodge comes with its own problems including the fact that he can just target someone else.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 6723599, member: 6787650"] If you can Disarm a normal greatsword with a dagger (perhaps by striking at the hand holding the greatsword), why couldn't you Disarm a triple-size Greatsword (much smaller than a telephone pole in my neighborhood) with a greatsword? There's a reason why Push maneuvers are size-restricted and Disarm is not. If the DM disallows it during combat after introducing it, that's on him, in the same way that it's on him if he refuses to allow Evasion vs. dragon breath because "there's nowhere to hide." It's not germane to the discussion of what tactics are available to the class as written, it's more of a playstyle issue with how your DM runs his game. I already discussed what happens if he tries to grab it back from you ("pick it up again"). That costs him time, and time is on your side because the other PCs are busy killing him while you fight over his sword. And you have an inherent advantage in the contest over his sword because you have more attacks--and your advantage is even more pronounced if the Warlock has him Hexed. [B]Edit:[/B] see retraction below. If he tries to attack you barehanded or with a boulder, great! That's what defensive fighting is all about. Instead of taking 6d6+7 (28) damage per hit, you'll take 3d1+7 (10) unarmed or 3d4+7 (14) with the improvised boulder. He can try to chuck boulders instead, but he'll have disadvantage because you're within 5' of him, and he only gets one boulder attack per turn instead of two with the greatsword, and he only has 2-5 boulders per MM guidelines. You've pulled his teeth, allowing you to defeat him with less loss. That's tactics right there. I disagree that merely having more discrete abilities is a good foundation for outside-the-box thinking. I certainly don't see any evidence that the plethora of discretized abilities in 5E encourages players to use the existing abilities outside the box. No one that I've ever heard of tries to use Smite to enhance his Disarm attempt, or to Rage as part of his attempt to Intimidate. Instead, the highly-specific nature of the abilities encourages players and DMs to keep them in their little mental boxes: Smite enhances damage and that's it, and using it on anything else is illegal. On the other hand, a generic ability like the fighter's multiple Extra Attacks interacts in rich and rewarding ways with rules features which leverage Extra Attacks, such as Disarming, to make the fighter much, much better at those things than anybody else. You get a geometric increase in tactical depth without combinatoric increase in complexity, the way you would with discretized powers. Think of it this way: there's a (bonus) action economy in 5E, and there's a concentration economy, and there's a gold economy, and there's a reaction economy, and there's an attack economy. Paladins, rangers, and barbarians can be pretty good at the attack economy, but the fighter excels, so if there's something you want the fighter to excel at, tie it to the attack economy. So far that's what 5E has done with most combat options; although a few of them are tied to the movement or action economies instead. (I'm looking at you, Overrun/Athletics, Disengage/Cunning Action and Dodge/Patient Defense.) And because the fighter has a great attack economy, he can make things economical that the paladin can't, such as pushing someone prone and then Power Attacking them twice before retreating, which basically trades two Power Attacks at advantage for one opportunity attack at disadvantage. That doesn't work so well when you've only got two attacks. [B]Edit/Retraction: [/B]BTW, the DMG Disarm already incorporates advantage/disadvantage mechanics for two-handed weapons and size, which I had forgotten about when I estimated 80% earlier, and which should also assuage your concerns about disarming a giant sword. It will be quite difficult unless Hex is involved. The giant has advantage on his Athletics check because he's larger than you, and you have disadvantage on your attack roll because he's using it two-handed. Since he's already got +2 Athletics relative to you, even with your three attacks you might not prevail. Unless someone has him Hexed, [B]Disarm might be a losing strategy after all[/B], compared to Dodge. But Dodge comes with its own problems including the fact that he can just target someone else. [/QUOTE]
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