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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 4044752" data-attributes="member: 40961">Amen.  On top of that, some people seem to be confusing the natural overlap between defenders (mission: hamper enemies so that they hold still while you beat on them) and controllers (mission: hamper enemies so they stay over there, and don't come over here and beat on you).  Just looking at the fact that enemies are being hampered is too high a level of abstraction.  Of course everyone looks the same at that point.  Even the rogue bludgeons people so that they grant combat advantage, or have other negative conditions.  That doesn't make him a controller just because he imposed a negative condition on someone.A lot of the martial controller ideas in this thread also have two other flaws: First, they're only really appropriate for high level characters.  Low level characters probably shouldn't be running through the middle of the battlefield and disarming like 6 dudes, or firing a storm of arrows that hits everyone in a cone.  So, what are these characters doing for the 15 levels it takes them to get to the point where its plausible for them to do these things?  Second, there are a few vague balance issues involved.  If a character can sprint through a battlefield safely, disarm like 6 dudes, and emerge on the other side, he basically has to take some kind of hit in normal combat power so that he doesn't overpower the regular fighter who can't do these things.  But why, logically, would a guy who can accomplish something that impressive, be comparatively bad at fighting just one guy?  He has to, for metagame balance reasons, but it doesn't make a ton of sense.I'd love for some character classes (or paragon paths or whatever) which are intentionally designed to overlap multiple roles.  But I'd prefer to just take the few genuinely controller-ish martial abilities out there and give them to the classes that they most fit, rather than to create entire new classes to stuff full of contrived material after we run out of actual controller material.Take this hypothetical power:Clearing Sweep: Per Day Ability.  You swing your weapon in a full circle, forcing back every foe within reach.  Make an attack against Will targeting all enemies that you threaten.  Those enemies who fail automatically move one square directly away from you.  Those who succeed may choose to move one square away from you, or remain in their current square. Those enemies still in a square you threaten after this attack is made receive a followup attack against AC.Personally, I see that as a defender ability, but I know some people would disagree.  Whatever.  We COULD make a martial class and give this ability to it on the grounds that its sort of controller-ish.  But why?  Just give it to the fighter.  From a fluff standpoint, it fits him best anyways.  I'd love for the martial control abilities that DO exist to find a home.  I just don't think there's enough meat there to create a whole, coherent, balanced class.</blockquote>

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