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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cadfan" data-source="post: 4045776" data-attributes="member: 40961">Previously in this conversation, I asserted that I doubted a martial character would be unable to do even basic controller like things with much regularity.  Specifically, he would have trouble 1) hindering 2) multiple 3) foes at range.  The response I got was that 1) disarming or tripping is hindering, 2) he could affect everyone he moved past, and 3) moving really fast is kind of like affecting targets at range.  All technically true statements.  But, while I don't know what the power level will be like in 4e, I highly suspect that a character who can blitz through a battlefield and disarm or trip everyone he runs past is going to be, by definition, a high level character.  Similarly, characters who fire storms of arrows?  I could be wrong, and that could be the sort of thing a low level character does, but I really, really doubt it.  Some of these abilities are cool, and I wouldn't mind them being in the game- but a controller needs to control right out of the box at level 1.  He can't afford to wait until level 17 to get Tornado Throw from Book of Nine Swords.I'll bet you an imaginary cookie that the PHB already has an ability in it for fighters where the fighter hits some dude so hard the dude falls backwards a space or two.  Its not that much of an extrapolation from there for the fighter to hit several dudes.  And if you think that "it just isn't smart for the [Fighter] to ever do such a thing," I think you're flat out wrong.  There's dozens of situations where the best defender behavior would be to force his enemies away from him.  If the defender is defending a passage, for example, he could use this to advance down the hall, forcing his foes backwards.  If he were fighting on a bridge, he could push people off the bridge.  There's lots of reasons a defender might want to shove someone somewhere.  And roles aren't straightjackets, and one (probably higher level) power choice is hardly going to cripple a new player's ability to fulfill his combat role.  I think you sell new players short.</blockquote>

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