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<blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 5115089" data-attributes="member: 704">One thing that I advise everyone to keep in mind before making specific comments about grind.[SIZE=+2]Direct comparisons between two different groups of players might not carry over directly.[/SIZE]There are presently 22 Character classes and 18 Races from PHB 1, PHB 2, and PHB 3.&nbsp; when you include Eberron and Forgotten Realms options, it becomes 24 classes and 22 Races, and that is before you count the Hybrid options, and whatever Dragon Magazine stuff your DM allows (I permit the Revenant).&nbsp; Within each class, there are several other variables relating to build.&nbsp; Some races (human shifter, half elf and others) offer benefits that are dependant upon a choice made during character creation.&nbsp; Beyond that there are different choices possible for stat allocation, feat choice, equipment choice, power choices, and more.Now, even if you control for all that among players, the one thing that people will over look is that different DM's have different habits with respect to what kind of combat they like to run, and how they run them.&nbsp; One DM may end up with grindy combats because his monster choices are heavy on soldiers a few levels higher then his PC's, which means lots of misses.&nbsp; Another Dm may use very large quantities of minions.&nbsp; This may to a fight of only a reasonable number of rounds, but it may lead to each of those rounds taking a very long time.A grindy combat to me is not necessarily one that takes a very long time.&nbsp; A grindy fight is a fight that takes longer then it ought to, and that ends up boring.With that in mind, consider these points before you answer (and I am not looking for answers to each point).&nbsp;- How long is too long for a fight (in real minutes / hours)?&nbsp;- What usually causes a fight to take too long?&nbsp; &nbsp;--&nbsp; monsters with too many HP?&nbsp; &nbsp;--&nbsp; monsters with Too high AC?&nbsp; &nbsp;--&nbsp; Too many monsters?&nbsp; &nbsp;--&nbsp; Overly high player AC &nbsp;--&nbsp; Too many Hp / healing surges for players?&nbsp;--&nbsp; Your friend Shawn canceling, leaving you 1 man short when storming Undermountain?&nbsp;--&nbsp; The presence of ineffective players?&nbsp;--&nbsp; A combination of the above?&nbsp;- Does the party composition have a greater effect then the encounter composition?&nbsp;- What specifically makes a long fight boring?&nbsp;--&nbsp; Monsters that wont die and cannot kill you?&nbsp;--&nbsp; Being reduced to using only At Will or basic attacks?&nbsp;--&nbsp; Your DM disallowing alchohol consumption at the table?&nbsp;--&nbsp; Having sub optimal At Will attacks for the encounter at hand?&nbsp;--&nbsp; Your DM being too damn stingy with the loot, leaving you no magic item powers?&nbsp;--&nbsp; A lack of options not tied to combat powers?For my own answer, I would have to say that a fight only becomes a grind when the tactical situation ends up staying the same for too long and neither side has any way to meaningfully change the situation.&nbsp; But I have not really had any fights that I felt became too grindy, neither as a PC or as a DM.END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lord Zardoz, post: 5115089, member: 704"] One thing that I advise everyone to keep in mind before making specific comments about grind. [B][SIZE=+2][color=yellow]Direct comparisons between two different groups of players might not carry over directly.[/color][/SIZE][/B] There are presently 22 Character classes and 18 Races from PHB 1, PHB 2, and PHB 3. when you include Eberron and Forgotten Realms options, it becomes 24 classes and 22 Races, and that is before you count the Hybrid options, and whatever Dragon Magazine stuff your DM allows (I permit the Revenant). Within each class, there are several other variables relating to build. Some races (human shifter, half elf and others) offer benefits that are dependant upon a choice made during character creation. Beyond that there are different choices possible for stat allocation, feat choice, equipment choice, power choices, and more. Now, even if you control for all that among players, the one thing that people will over look is that different DM's have different habits with respect to what kind of combat they like to run, and how they run them. One DM may end up with grindy combats because his monster choices are heavy on soldiers a few levels higher then his PC's, which means lots of misses. Another Dm may use very large quantities of minions. This may to a fight of only a reasonable number of rounds, but it may lead to each of those rounds taking a very long time. A grindy combat to me is not necessarily one that takes a very long time. A grindy fight is a fight that takes longer then it ought to, and that ends up boring. With that in mind, consider these points before you answer (and I am not looking for answers to each point). - How long is too long for a fight (in real minutes / hours)? - What usually causes a fight to take too long? -- monsters with too many HP? -- monsters with Too high AC? -- Too many monsters? -- Overly high player AC -- Too many Hp / healing surges for players? -- Your friend Shawn canceling, leaving you 1 man short when storming Undermountain? -- The presence of ineffective players? -- A combination of the above? - Does the party composition have a greater effect then the encounter composition? - What specifically makes a long fight boring? -- Monsters that wont die and cannot kill you? -- Being reduced to using only At Will or basic attacks? -- Your DM disallowing alchohol consumption at the table? -- Having sub optimal At Will attacks for the encounter at hand? -- Your DM being too damn stingy with the loot, leaving you no magic item powers? -- A lack of options not tied to combat powers? For my own answer, I would have to say that a fight only becomes a grind when the tactical situation ends up staying the same for too long and neither side has any way to meaningfully change the situation. But I have not really had any fights that I felt became too grindy, neither as a PC or as a DM. END COMMUNICATION [/QUOTE]

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