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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Zardoz" data-source="post: 5115470" data-attributes="member: 704">All reasonable suggestions.  But as I said previously, this thread is not intended to be yet another  'Too much grind, how do I fix it' thread.  I am convinced that there are enough variable elements from one game to the next that it may be more productive to find out why people end up encountering grind.  To that end, having people describe what constitutes a grind and why it happens is more interesting.That to me is interesting.  Just consider the level differentials here a momnet:Lvl 2 PCs vs Lvl 5 Elite.Lvl 1 PC's vs Lvl 5 Brute.Lvl 3/4 PC's vs Lvl 7 EliteIt has been decisively proven that in 4th Edition, PC's can punch well above their weight due to improved durability.  But in 3rd Edition, no sane Dm would habitually put level 1 and 2 players up against 5 HD monsters, becuase such fights would be mechanically broken.  An Elite at any level is by definition supposed to be a creature that is just much more durable, and able to last a few more rounds against level appropriate players while not having the overwhelming offense that a similar amount of HP would indicate in previous editions.  It does not have the means to challenge every party member like a Solo can.In 3rd Edition, lvl 2 vs CR 5 is a risk of a TPK.  In 4th you get the risk of a grind.  But complaining that either is broken seems like complaining that your car gets stuck when you take your Smart Car offroading in the mud.  Why do we expect these fights to work in this ruleset?Ok, so from this, I would slightly alter your first sentence. "The fightis already decided in the players favor, we are just negotiating the number of healing surges".  That does seem to be the most common type of grind.The Black Dragon example is what I would call Lurker Grind.  The fight is not really certain at that point, since the dragon has a good shot at winning.  A solo Lurker that is a few levels higher then the PC's is probably going to be one of the longest possible fights you can have.  Monster does not have enough damage output to put anyone at risk, so every player has at least 1.25 normal HP (from 2nd wind), and more if Leaders and temp HP are a factor.Those two elements are a factor.  Many enemies creates the possibility of the Dm having a 'hot' round with the dice and inflicting more damage then any X+3 Elite could do.  Flanking will help against high player AC.The presence of interesting terrain will help compensate for a too long combat against many opponents.  I do not think it will matter much against low numbers of Elites who fight best toe to toe.Very good points here regarding the definition of grind.  I will question whether beating on a wall of HP is boring in and of its self, assuming the players are able to hit reasonably often.  I will accept that beating on a wall of HP with only At Will attacks will get boring.  I also expect that having that wall of HP with an AC that causes most of the encounter and daily powers to miss is a big factor.  But it is also possible that if you use a few too many level appropriate elites and the players run out of such attacks, that the fight starts to grind.END COMMUNICATION</blockquote>

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