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<blockquote data-quote="S'mon" data-source="post: 5115782" data-attributes="member: 463">Well, the 4e designer's intent is explicitly that an Elite can replace 2 Standards, ie that it is exactly twice as powerful as 1 Standard.&nbsp; Originally it did this by being more than twice as durable (raised defences and x2 hp) and only slightly more damaging, than a single standard.&nbsp; With the 'errated' reduced Elite defenses, Elites need more damage output to remain comparable to 2 Standards, but I think those in MM2 generally manage it ok.Re PCs fighting over-level monsters - maybe 1st level PCs is not the best starting point; they are much more vulnerable relative to the 5th level monster than say 11th level PCs would be vs a 15th level monster.&nbsp; My experience is that 1st level PCs can fight some 5th level monsters, but not all - some Brutes can be quite easy, but Soldiers are difficult.&nbsp; It's not a simple equation - a 1st level party that can take on 1 5th level elite brute may struggle with 2 standard 5th level brutes, and could easily be wiped out by 3 3rd level Orc Raider skirmishers who got a few lucky rolls.I agree with you that +4 levels is around the most that PCs can take on, with the exception of some brutes that can go up to +7 levels, and the range may increase a bit as levels go up.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="S'mon, post: 5115782, member: 463"] Well, the 4e designer's intent is explicitly that an Elite can replace 2 Standards, ie that it is exactly twice as powerful as 1 Standard. Originally it did this by being more than twice as durable (raised defences and x2 hp) and only slightly more damaging, than a single standard. With the 'errated' reduced Elite defenses, Elites need more damage output to remain comparable to 2 Standards, but I think those in MM2 generally manage it ok. Re PCs fighting over-level monsters - maybe 1st level PCs is not the best starting point; they are much more vulnerable relative to the 5th level monster than say 11th level PCs would be vs a 15th level monster. My experience is that 1st level PCs can fight some 5th level monsters, but not all - some Brutes can be quite easy, but Soldiers are difficult. It's not a simple equation - a 1st level party that can take on 1 5th level elite brute may struggle with 2 standard 5th level brutes, and could easily be wiped out by 3 3rd level Orc Raider skirmishers who got a few lucky rolls. I agree with you that +4 levels is around the most that PCs can take on, with the exception of some brutes that can go up to +7 levels, and the range may increase a bit as levels go up. [/QUOTE]

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