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<blockquote data-quote="Pickles JG" data-source="post: 5115960" data-attributes="member: 61501">This seems to mesh with my experience. The higher level of the bad guys involved the greater the risk of grind. 4e is surprisingly intolerant of what level enemies to use to get the most fun fights (beating up -3 guys is not fun either).&nbsp;Elites &amp; solos are IMO intented to allow the DMs to have bosses &amp; monsters in very small teams &amp; still have them threatening &amp; not tedious to deal with (the extra actions they get also do this). If I wanted to use a level 9 monster against level 5 PCs I would be better advised to make it a level 5 elite of the same XP value but with more apropriate defences &amp; attack bonuses. It would also need to essentially double its damage output from its delevelled form.&nbsp;Back on topic I have also noticed &quot;controller grind&quot;. Monsters that deny the PCs effective actions at the cost of damage output can give grind. The most defining experience I had was fighting a Lamia with an AOE stun on a recharge IIRC that did no damage. Once we had disposed of most of its allies we were all stunned every couple of rounds while it did a little damage back. Then we would nibble it for a while before more of the stunning. This encounter also suffered from it being higher level than the PCs &amp; not very well designed in composition. Fighting anything that dazes stund &amp; imobbilises can be frustrating&nbsp; - a little control goes a long way IME.&nbsp;Other horrors have been regenerating weakening incorporeals ....</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Pickles JG, post: 5115960, member: 61501"] This seems to mesh with my experience. The higher level of the bad guys involved the greater the risk of grind. 4e is surprisingly intolerant of what level enemies to use to get the most fun fights (beating up -3 guys is not fun either). Elites & solos are IMO intented to allow the DMs to have bosses & monsters in very small teams & still have them threatening & not tedious to deal with (the extra actions they get also do this). If I wanted to use a level 9 monster against level 5 PCs I would be better advised to make it a level 5 elite of the same XP value but with more apropriate defences & attack bonuses. It would also need to essentially double its damage output from its delevelled form. Back on topic I have also noticed "controller grind". Monsters that deny the PCs effective actions at the cost of damage output can give grind. The most defining experience I had was fighting a Lamia with an AOE stun on a recharge IIRC that did no damage. Once we had disposed of most of its allies we were all stunned every couple of rounds while it did a little damage back. Then we would nibble it for a while before more of the stunning. This encounter also suffered from it being higher level than the PCs & not very well designed in composition. Fighting anything that dazes stund & imobbilises can be frustrating - a little control goes a long way IME. Other horrors have been regenerating weakening incorporeals .... [/QUOTE]

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