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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Gort" data-source="post: 1633669" data-attributes="member: 11239">Thanks for putting the effort into summarising it all. Maybe we just play at different levels, or play dwarves differently. Here're my experiences:I've never seen a dwarf who wasn't a fighter or a cleric. (However, I'd like to do a rogue sometime.)I've never seen a dwarf who didn't wear full-plate armour while adventuring.For those reasons, I've never seen a dwarf who desired or possessed a dexterity higher than 12. Therefore the -2 dex really wasn't a great penalty to them. Ditto the slow movement speed - you were going to be moving that fast anyway!At higher levels, a +1 HP per level helps a lot more than a +1 AC. As for dex-based skills, I've never seen a dwarf who possessed any ranks in one. If you don't use a skill, a penalty in it doesn't matter to you.The dwarfs charisma penalty doesn't hurt them much either. The dwarf cleric in my game prestige classed into Church Inquisitor, forfeiting his turning advancement, so his low charisma didn't hurt his class abilities.Again, at higher levels, +2 in skills don't matter, really. I've never seen a dwarf use his bonuses. An elf ranger with a +24 in spot is not so terrifically different to a human one with +22, so I don't see this as a big deal.The +2 save bonus against all spells and spell-like effects is a big deal, on the other hand. A LOT better than immunity to sleep spells and a bonus against enchantments. Spells are the premier way to make people take saves, and with the advent of save-or-die spells or save-or-take-hideous amounts of damage, I'll take a +2 bonus any day.Elven proficiency with weapons means you see elven wizards who think they can use their longbows, but it turns out they're actually rather rubbish with them. (I have one in my game. Has carried a longbow for 11 levels. Has yet to hit with it. Is purchasing a wand of magic missile instead.) Any elf who has any business wielding a longsword has taken a class which gives him proficiency anyway. Dwarves, on the other hand, get the equivalent of bastard sword proficiency for free. Not bad for dwarven fighters or combat clerics, the two classes dwarves are great at being.+4 AC against giants. Meh. It's a big bonus, so at least it really counts when it counts. But I wouldn't say it's a big deal. Ditto stability bonus.Yeah, this is pretty much the same analysis as you came up with, but my conclusions and reasoning are different. I'll summarise with this. Sometimes the elf has better bonuses. But those bonuses are minor, whereas the dwarf is perfectly suited to the two classes people play them as, and when his bonuses are better than the elf's, they're a LOT better.</blockquote>

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