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Message: <blockquote data-quote="delericho" data-source="post: 4992087" data-attributes="member: 22424">I have absolutely no desire to play Warhammer 3e, where 2e is one of my favourite games. The more I learn about the new edition, the less I like it.Obviously, I therefore think there are no mechanical lessons D&D 4e should have learned, except perhaps "how not to do it".That said...I have become convinced that the D&D 'core' is just too big and too complex. This was true in 3e and 3.5e. It is true in 4e, and it is true in Pathfinder. The core rules now run to 800+ pages of books, often of very dense text and very complex rules. And, in order to play, someone has to be familiar with the vast bulk of that material.(Alternately, there's the possibility of a starter set. Unfortunately, all too often, these make use of a "dumbed down" subset of the rules and rely very heavily on the use of pregenerated characters. Worse still, when the party 'graduate' to the real rules, the starter set pretty much loses all value. This means that if you don't like the game, you've wasted the money you spent on the starter set. If you do like the game, you've wasted the money you spend on the starter set.)So, where I do think D&D could learn some lessons from WFRP (and also Warhammer Fantasy Battles and Warhammer 40,000) is in the form of a deluxe starter set.My set would start with a Core Rulebook (a single book replacing the current PHB/DMG/MM trio). This should be in full colour, be about 250 pages long, and include as much as will fit. This probably means restricting the core set down to four races (Human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling), four classes (Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard), and the first tier (my ideal version uses the tiers from BECM D&D, so would actually be the Basic and Expert tiers at levels 1-14. But, for the 4e version, that would mean levels 1-10). The other major rules change I advocate is to reduce the number of choices required to create a first level character - the choice of feat, or maybe even of powers could be deferred to second (or subsequent) levels.Then, you add a set of Quickstart rules, a booklet of adventure material, and various other things to get people playing right away.And then you add to that the usual raft of dungeon tiles, spell effect templates, condition markers, miniature figures, character sheets, and so on.Two key differences between this set and any recent Starter Set/Basic Game: Firstly, the Core Rulebook supplied with this boxed set is the same Core Rulebook that everyone else uses. (It should be available for sale separately. Anything that's missing from that rulebook, such as the remaining races, classes and levels, should be covered in supplements.) This means that the rules used in the starter set are exactly the same rules as used in the real game. It also means that the vast majority of the starter game components retain their value once you graduate.The other difference is that the starter set would emphasise players creating their own custom character at the outset. The box probably should include pregen characters, for those who are desperate to play right away, but there should definitely be encouragement to 'take the plunge' and create a new character as soon as possible.One more, possibly important, point about starter boxed sets, price points, and so forth. In the UK, RPG rulebooks are classified as "books" by our customs and excise people. Boxed sets are classified as "games". Books are not liable for VAT, while games are, which immediately increases the price by 17.5% tax (currently 15%, but that's about to be going up). That's one of the reasons I insist that the Core Rulebook should be available separately (the other being that 'expert' players probably won't want to buy in to yet another starter set - they'll probably just want to get the updated rules).</blockquote>

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