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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Man in the Funny Hat" data-source="post: 3982628" data-attributes="member: 32740">And it can be too much of a good thing both in D&D and WoW.  In both when characters get to a certain level they wind up with gobs of abilities that, for my part, DO NOT GET USED.  In 3E I saw players many times slog their way through an encounter or handle it almost by rote in the "usual" manner and only afterward realizing they have potions, scrolls, feats, etc. that they COULD have used, but didn't and then they continue to remain unused the next time as well.  Same with WoW, though my experience with WoW is more limited.  Still, I get WoW characters to 20th level or so and I've got bar after bar filling up with more and more options and less and less desire to add to the pile, much less slog through trying to find reasons to use them in what specfic circumstances and in what order and... I'd rather just freakin' hack at things for a while.  Same behavior as I see in D&D.  Too many special abilities = too much of a good thing.And yet still horribly limited in scope and conforming ONLY to the developers desires rather than the influence of PC actions.  Computer games can only DREAM of a DISTANT future where one day they will have the adaptability and GENUINE interactivity of D&D.  D&D has nothing to learn from WoW on this score - it ALL swings the opposite way.Not true.  In D&D the players at the table do not EVER need to while away 10 minutes as their characters sit on griffons or mounts, or worse yet run cross country, trying to get back to Ironforge or Stormwind to sell packfuls of useless crap to free space and exchange it for minimal cash just to continue adventuring, and then GO BACK to where they just were to resume or start a new quest.  TIME and it's passing has an ENTIRELY different nature between WoW and D&D.  I think D&D has the edge, as ANY time travel is necessary the time it takes passes just as fast as your DM can ready himself for the next encounter.  D&D games can start in media res.  WoW CANNOT unless you logged out in a dangerous area - and then you're on your own for a while...D&D is NOT a competitive game.  There is no ultimate win/lose.  There is only fun/not fun.  D&D dies a little more with EVERY measure taken to attempt to make it a player-versus-player tournament game.  What you suggest is, to me, an unspeakable abomination and I for one WILL NOT ABIDE IT.  Do as you like around your table but keep your competition rules the freak out of the books. [enhance calm][/enchance calm]So is D&D.  This is a wash, ergo D&D has nothing to really learn from WoW in this regard.  I've got little nieces and nephews who roleplay at the drop of a hat and don't have clue from D&D, though if you give them an assortment of plastic minis including cows, dinosaurs, robots, and WotC plasticrack their imagination STAGGERS me.You are correct, however, that D&D can learn, not just from WoW, but from previous editions of D&D, that FAST character creation is important for NEW players.Nope.  People can only do what the WoW structure allows them to do.  Sure some people just like to fish in WoW (though for the LIFE of me I cannot understand why...) but they can't do it from a boat unless that boat is already in the middle of a lake.  They can't make a fishing boat, buy one, or rent one, much less row one, sail one, sink one, steal one, etc...  They fish from shore - and they kill REAL time doing it.  A LOT of real time.  And they only use a pole.  They can't use a net, or a fish trap, or a spear.  And they can't point to an NPC and say, "This is my father, Greel the Fisherman," and have the NPC say, "Yes I am.  And I am proud of my son, Stogg FlounderFist for he has saved our village from the Murlocs."  Because no PC has an NPC mother, father, cousin, wierd Uncle Fester, nor even a hut that he once upon a time called home and where everyone in the village knows his name.D&D has ABSOLUTELY nothing to learn from WoW here.Again, I'd have to disagree.  In WoW, why does a cyan-colored shirt in WoW cost 30 gold to buy (at auction) and require 180 tailoring skill, and Spellweave Cloth made from the wool of the deadly Sturgeonsheep, and dye made from the ichor of 70 Altoid Birds (and you have to kill 225 Altoids to get that much ichor) in order to sew one (and just to get the color - it does NOTHING else special)?  Yet a blue shirt can be made with 5 tailoring skill, with wool and some common blue dye and you make 30 of them so that you can make YELLOW shirts(!)?  Does D&D need to take a cue from this way of thinking?In WoW you can make a Singeface Stupendous Sword for your character by spending a week gathering all the components and working your skill up to where you can do it - or you can buy one on in-game-e-bay.  In D&D you can do the same sort of thing but not have to spend 72 REAL LIFE hours doing it. Which is superior?In WoW, once your pack and bag slots are full with everything from 17 tons of copper ore, a bale of cotton, 90 assorted animal hides, 9 pounds of various herbs, 6 suits of piecemeal armor, 4 swords, 19 axes (though 8 of those are special and will be exchanged with Wonko the Sane for a new pair of gloves!) 2 dead bear carcasses, and assorted apples, cheeses, a dozen skins of water, firewood for 18 campfires (but only if you should feel the need to cook as ice, snow, rain, and frozen lakes are no hindrance to anybody) and a bag of marbles... well then you need RUN to the nearest village to process the ore to make 3 daggers that you sell, tan the 90 hides to make 2 leather jerkins that you sell, and cash the rest directly for 16 silver pieces.In D&D your backpack is already full when you enter the dungeon, but you can drag out a few chests full of gold and miscellaneous loot and load up your horses and mules.  And then if you, your friends, your horses and mules all survive the trip back to something resembling civilization you'll... sell it all for cash.  But you won't have to save up for a MONTH of real-world time spent in the game to buy a horse, or a second backpack.No, I don't think WoW has much to offer D&D here either.  Though D&D in the "phat loot" department is NOT perfect, it's at least not as insulting as WoW.YMMV</blockquote>

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