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Message: <blockquote data-quote="teitan" data-source="post: 2840525" data-attributes="member: 3457">Yo smurf,See the thing is that I have experienced in a LOT of games lately, 3.5 and D20 Modern games, that at least in my area DM's and Players aren't doing that. Things have to be quanitified. That is why I said I know it isn't the rules as written (RAW) but they are taking it to mean the RAW. They aren't remembering untrained skill use. I have a guy who joined my group just after we set the D&D game aside to play Mutants & Masterminds and then finish an AD&D2e campaign that he and another guy were in. Now this guy was invited to play with another group with some guys at work. They were playing D20 Modern and he HATED IT because he wanted to shoot an Uzi and the DM said he couldn't use it because he didn't have the feats to use automatic weapons. Now he knows D20 Modern is a variation on D&D3 and he swore of D&D because he was told that was how the rules are now. I played with another group, a Gnomish Artificer, and I was told I couldn't swim cause I didn't have ranks in swim... an UNTRAINED skill. I should have been able to make a strength check (+1) to see if I could swim across the river but no, I had to be carried by the half-orc... on a DC 10. I don't fault 3.5 the core for it, just the mentality that if it isn't on yer charsheet ye can't do it. Jason</blockquote>