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<blockquote data-quote="hanez" data-source="post: 5808881" data-attributes="member: 82160">Couple people mentioned this so I'll elaborate.&nbsp; I guess the confusion is I prefaced the beginning of my &quot;rant&quot; with describing my players as &quot;not into roleplaying&quot;.&nbsp; &nbsp; Perhaps that might have been better written as &quot;not predispoded to roleplay&quot;&nbsp; they don't have arts degrees if you know what I mean.What I'm trying to say is we played a more tactical combat style game and I as DM didn't resist it.&nbsp; I dove into 4e full bore.&nbsp; The rules pushed us a to be bit more tactical, we used the standard modules and they certainly were a mini extravaganza.&nbsp; &nbsp; But after a year, we were all pretty bored.&nbsp; Most of my player complaints could be summed up in two points&nbsp; 1 - All classes felt generic and 2 - the powers were boring.&nbsp; I think point two and some of point 1 is related to the fluff being seperated and how my players ignored the fluff (as many players did).Also I think on some level they want to roleplay or at least be immersed in their characters.&nbsp; This desire is unspoken under the conscious level of wanting to be powerful and roast orcs, underneath that you want to be able to be immersed in the idea of your character.&nbsp;&nbsp; And its hard to be immersed when instead of thinking&nbsp;&nbsp; how cool it is to cast a mirror image, you are simply drawn to the rules that make it an AC boost and dont even notice you are making multiple images of yourself.Mirror image is a perfect example for me because I remember casting it in previous editions.&nbsp; And every time I had no idea what exact mechanical effect it would have.&nbsp; Would my DM just hit the real me, would there be some way to track it, how would he DM work with this spell, would I put secret markers on a grid or something?&nbsp; In all that lack of knowledge, there was one thing I did know, I was casting a spell that made multiple images of me, and that was freaking awesome!&nbsp; Now compare that to the new description which can be summed up as&nbsp; &quot;+6 to AC subtract 2 every time they miss&quot;.&nbsp; Its just not the same <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="hanez, post: 5808881, member: 82160"] Couple people mentioned this so I'll elaborate. I guess the confusion is I prefaced the beginning of my "rant" with describing my players as "not into roleplaying". Perhaps that might have been better written as "not predispoded to roleplay" they don't have arts degrees if you know what I mean. What I'm trying to say is we played a more tactical combat style game and I as DM didn't resist it. I dove into 4e full bore. The rules pushed us a to be bit more tactical, we used the standard modules and they certainly were a mini extravaganza. But after a year, we were all pretty bored. Most of my player complaints could be summed up in two points 1 - All classes felt generic and 2 - the powers were boring. I think point two and some of point 1 is related to the fluff being seperated and how my players ignored the fluff (as many players did). Also I think on some level they want to roleplay or at least be immersed in their characters. This desire is unspoken under the conscious level of wanting to be powerful and roast orcs, underneath that you want to be able to be immersed in the idea of your character. And its hard to be immersed when instead of thinking how cool it is to cast a mirror image, you are simply drawn to the rules that make it an AC boost and dont even notice you are making multiple images of yourself. Mirror image is a perfect example for me because I remember casting it in previous editions. And every time I had no idea what exact mechanical effect it would have. Would my DM just hit the real me, would there be some way to track it, how would he DM work with this spell, would I put secret markers on a grid or something? In all that lack of knowledge, there was one thing I did know, I was casting a spell that made multiple images of me, and that was freaking awesome! Now compare that to the new description which can be summed up as "+6 to AC subtract 2 every time they miss". Its just not the same :) [/QUOTE]

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