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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4929075" data-attributes="member: 2011">You miscontrue.I agree that swinging a sword and only doing damage ad infinitum was bad.Giving one class few options and one class many options does not mean that the class with few options just swings his sword. That sword swing can still push foes or whirlwind attack multiple foes.It means that the player that is uncomfortable looking through a large stack of powers to decide which power is going to be used can instead look through a smaller stack. Granted, the player could do this anyway by just ignoring some powers and not using them, but larger stacks do present problems in campaigns where missing players have their PC played by other players like in our campaign.An illusion is battlefield control. It rarely in 3E resulted in the bad guys being totally controlled. It often had them swinging at air for a while or something, but a solid wall of stone could prevent actions from occurring in both 3E and 4E as well.Are wall spells in 4E bad because they are one PC controlling the situation?I agree with you that uber high level spells were bad. I disagree that nerfing the classes so that their spells last one round or even to the end of the encounter and often once per day is the best solution.High count durations (i.e. last more than one encounter) are as difficult to keep track of as low count until the end of the encounter durations.The advantage of having other durations in the game system is versatility for the players.The problem I have is that most durations last a round. This is the problem.As a DM, I have to put a marker or token on the NPC and 3 minutes later, I have to remove it (or a player might do so if s/he is closer). With more longer condition durations in the game system, we would not need to do that.A significant portion of our game in 4E is placing various condition tokens on the miniatures (bloodied, stunned, dazed, slowed, ongoing damage, etc.) and then turning around and removing them moments later.A lot of game time is wasted doing this. It adds up.But the problem is more a game feel problem.Magics such as Flying or Invisibility are nerfed to the point of near uselessness. Why play a Wizard when you can play a Sorcerer because the game system is damage oriented instead of fun oriented?Look at Fly:3.5: Multiple times per day, 5th level, could use on allies, could put on scrolls, can only be dispelled with magic and then, not too easy.4E: Once per day, 16th level, can not use on allies, can not put on a scroll, fairly easy to dispel by anyone except minions (i.e. make it difficult for Wizard to use minor action, stun, daze, etc.).There is no flavor there. Fly is a footnote in 4E. It has extremely limited versatility and use. Many players of Wizards will never even get to 16th level to use it. zzzzzzzBut, the Eladrin and Warlocks can Teleport right and left at level one, often out of melee range. WT??? That's just plain bad game design.Fly should be a LOT more common than Teleport. IMO.</blockquote>

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