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Message: <blockquote data-quote="eriktheguy" data-source="post: 4930735" data-attributes="member: 83662">So a short summary of points we have seen so far:Spell CastersSome people think all the classes powers are similar, some do not. Most people agree that having all powers "do damage with an added minor effect" was a bad design choice.Most people agree that most PCs will choose to use damage dealing attacks, rather than non-damage dealing attacks, because 4e focuses on damage first and rewards players more for these actions.It is plain to see that a major change from 3e to 4e is that wizards (and other classes) no longer use illusions, charms, barriers in combat in the same way they used to. Spells that focus on effect tend to be non-combat rituals, spells used in combat tend to focus on damage.Spells that can end a combat without reducing a monsters HP to zero pretty much don't exist anymore. For example, it is harder to dominate the monster and tell it to leave, suggest it into leaving, charm it, or convince it to run from an illusion than it used to be. A few rare powers like sleep can essentially kill a monster with a little bit of luck, but usually just by exploiting broken features (like orb wizards -x to saves).Some people say that letting spell casters do these things in combat was wrong. Letting them do damage like everyone else is more balanced. Some people say that making spell casters do damage like everyone else takes away from the wonder. I'm pretty sure that the right answer is somewhere between this. In 5e I don't think that the spellcaster should be able to easily control a red dragon, but I don't think that casting a mind control spell should just deal "x psychic damage, and control the monster to make an at-will attack once, for one turn".In previous editions, the fighter dealt with problems with damage, and the wizard with a spell. I think it is necessary for flavor that a spell caster should be able to teleport or fly around a challenge every once in awhile. A rogue should be able to sneak past an encounter or coup de gras the boss every once in awhile. Fighters might not skip encounters as often (I guess it depends on the build and the player), but they contribute to every encounter with HP and damage, and look much cooler doing it in 4e. Most in this thread agree that the current edition does not award spell casters for ingenuity as often as we like it too. 5e should look at the 'broken' powers in the game, like flight teleportation, domination etc and decide how to implement them in a non-broken way, rather than replacing them with damage and a minor effect, or restricting them to the point of near-uselessness.Power Variety and OptionsMost people in this thread seem to admit that it is boring to use the same 2 at-wills and a small variety of encounters/dailies for your entire career. Some agree that more at-wills is a must have. I think that the current at-will are lots of fun for players. Without using up any resources they can say (Hmm, I can shift one square for combat advantage and attack with this one, or I could give the ally who is going to be attacked 5 times +1 AC with this one...) This keeps the players making decisions and is a lot of fun. People like to make choices. They like to have a few options (4 or 5) to choose from, and they like to see the effects of their good choice (combat advantage lets them hit, bonus AC saves an ally). Some people here have suggested more at-wills would be good. 4 or 5 at level 1 seems to be a common idea. Giving these options at level 1 ensures that PCs are not bored for the first few levels. An extra at-will at paragon and epic is cool. It mixes things up and makes flavor sense. Another great idea is non-class restricted at-wills. Rather than just choosing class at-will powers, players could choose powers available to their power source (martial powers), their role (striker powers), their race, their feats, their skill, and even some that are available to everyone. These would be balanced, reward synergy, and fit the flavor well.Give players more at-willsMake powers that can be taken in place of class powers according to race, role, power source, skills, featsMake a lot more at-wills to choose fromResources that limit the adventuring dayThis is a tough one to summarise because everyone disagrees. Some people like healing surges, some don't. Some people like dailies, some don't. Some people like action points and milestones, others don't. In 3e healing was limited by the party. Once the party ran out/low on healing they had to rest. In 4e healing is limited per player. Once a player runs out of surges, the entire party must often rest. This mechanic is seen by most of us as having issues.Ditto for daily powers. When one player runs out they wan't to rest, even if the rest of the party is still ready for action. This problem has been around since earlier editions though, and not everyone sees it as a problem. Some people contend that you still have encounter powers left, and that the rest of the party should be able to use their dailies to make up for it.Milestones offer incentive to keep going after a few fights, but not much. For some parties an extra action point is nothing compared to resting and getting back dailies and surges.Since we haven't agreed on any solution to this problem yet, I'll just list the issues that need fixingThe adventuring day shouldn't end for everyone just because the fighter is out of surgesMilestones need to offer more to convince players to adventure longerPlayers need more motivation not to take an extended rest between every fightMiscellaneous Math fixes to replace expertise, epic defense feats, fix advancement problems with lowest non-AC defensesPossibly implement a new ability system that is simpler, mathematically equivalent to the current system, but not based on the legacy system that is no longer relevantUse updates to fix problems that many players agree are game-breaking (orb wizards, bloodclaw, reckless)Don't put out items, feats, powers that are flavorless but so powerful that they take the place of more interesting items/feats (iron armbands of power, expertise, possibly toughness and weapon focus)</blockquote>

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