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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AllisterH" data-source="post: 4930858" data-attributes="member: 51325">I think Karinsdad is ignoring how many more restrictions there were on spellcasting in previous editions and only looking at the pure power of the spell. If you're going to argue that spellcasting has gotten weaker, make sure you list ALL the drawbacks in previous editions.Sure, the spell has become weaker over time, but the availability of the spell and  various other restrictions have been lifted.Ex: Creatures that had 10HD and were highly intelligent (never really defined per se in 1e but in 2e was defined as 13+ INT) automatically had a chance to see invisibility (and given a fighter had AT LEAST a 11 as their saving throw...). A prime example of how you didn't NEED magic to combat magic pre 3e. Given that in 3e the only mundane way to detect invisibility is via Scent or Tremorsense, it should be nerfed. The "saving throw" system of pre 3e actually made high level characters pretty much immune to magic spells and that's even before you add in magic items. None of this "fighter is more likely to become dominated at higher levels nonsense".He also downplays the rarity aspect of the spells. Spells could become powerful since they weren't being put into scrolls.(Sure, a 9th level wizard could create a scroll but the formula was 80% + 1% per wizard level - 1% per spell level and took one day per spell level to complete)A 12th level wizard only had 4 2nd level slots and that's even assuming the wizard actually knew it (no automatic acquisition of spells and even a 16 INT mage only had 70% chance to learn a spell and could only know a maximum of 11 spells per level)Karinsdad is quietly forgetting or maybe he didn't play by RAW in 1e/2e every single restriction that spellcasters had in previous editions(spellcasting in combat where a) you took any damage BEFORE your turn came up and you automatically LOST the spell and b) spellcasting being slower than melee especially at high levels - wizard spells added their level to the wizard's initiative count whereas magic weapons SUBTRACTED their plus to the count.Meaning that magic missile was the best combat spell around.3e's magic system is definitely WAY MORE powerful in pretty much every aspect than the pre 3.x version so I don't know how you can wite and say that WOTC nerfed magic.They dialled it way to far up in 3.x and maybe too far down in 4e but under WOTC, MU made out like bandits for about 8 years.</blockquote>

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