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Message: <blockquote data-quote="eriktheguy" data-source="post: 4931262" data-attributes="member: 83662">I would argue with you by saying that 'anyone with intimidate can knock out a level 2 solo with 92 HP left, so why shouldn't a Wizard?' That would be a poor argument, because the problem here is with a broken skill, not a broken class. Not to mention intimidate's use of the word 'surrendered' is widely open to interpretation. Lets look at some more balanced options.Lets give wizards a level 1 sleep daily. Damages multiple targets, and causes one to become asleep. We don't use the 'unconscious' condition, we use asleep. A sleeping target is considered unconscious, but wakes up when dealt damage, or when a nearby ally spends a minor action to slap em around.Of course, save ends, so if the target were a solo you need to coup de gras it immediately. A coup de gras combined with the sleep spell is unlikely to reach 92 damage. Even if it does, remember, it took 2 standard actions, not 1.More powerful wizard spells, those that are truly 'save or die', would definitely be restricted to higher levels.How about a finger of death attack. A level 9 daily that is restricted to bloodied targets only. Requiring melee range and bloodied is a fairly heavy condition. If you really want to stack on the requirements, you could give enemies a save to resist instant kill effects, but I don't think this is necessary.How about dominate monster. An even higher level daily. Make it an attack with a fairly good amount of psychic damage. It deals ongoing 5 psychic damage (save ends) In addition, it has the effect "if an enemy is reduced to 0 or fewer HP by this attack, or while suffering ongoing damage from this attack, it is instead restored to it's bloodied value and dominated by you until the end of the encounter." This is like your sleeping beauty spell, but with instant combat applications.There we go, not too game breaking, difficult to pull off, but marvelously effective when done right.I'm not done.Lets say that at the end of the encounter, all dominated creatures fall unconscious for the duration of an extended rest. Now create a ritual (arcana, religion) that allows them to permanently dominate a target x-levels below them that are in such a state. Perhaps the duration is limited and the ritual must be re-performed occasionally based on the skill check. Perhaps there is some danger of the target breaking free of the spell (and being very, very angry). There should be a maximum limit to the number of targets you can have dominated at one time. Maybe elites and solos are considered higher level when you try to control them.My above suggestions would need serious balance tweaking to implement, but you can see that it is possible for wizards to pull off some 3e style effects while maintaining 4e balance. I think that WotC was so scared by the power that 3e wizards could abuse, that they hid it away without considering its uses if balanced properly. There is a middle ground to 'save or die' and 'deal damage and a minor effect (save ends)'.Also, I do agree with your interpretation of damage. I don't consider HP to be health, it is a large pool of resources. I consider bloodied to be the first time the character is wounded. This is a great aid for describing the effects of certain spells. The sleep spell makes them drowsy, so they dodge the next attack (which bloodies them) poorly. The vicious mockery distracts them while the barbarians swing (KOing them) takes their head off.EDIT: Wasn't their an illusion spell in 3e that allowed 'save or die' but was only second level? I think it allowed two saves.</blockquote>

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