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What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 7503483" data-attributes="member: 29398"><p>Yeah, if this 'agreement' was a DM-enforced thing that would certainly count in my books as a DM flaw, under 'severe violation of player agency', that would cause me to leave a game.</p><p></p><p>That's because you're too worried about getting everything done right now. If a long in-character debate is looming then pour yourself a beer, sit back, and take it easy for a while. You've always got next session, or next month, or next year....the campaign you're running is designed to last the rest of your life, isn't it? If not, why not?</p><p></p><p>This is fine.</p><p></p><p>But how do you get from the last bit to this in one leap? Just because I'm the player asking the questions doesn't mean I'm the only player who wants the information, it means only that I'm the one who happened to ask. Also, an action can quite often be stated more succinctly as a question and-or simply contained within it. Example:</p><p></p><p>DM: "...and at the edge of your light is what might be a stone altar - it's hard to tell but there could be wispy smoke rising from its centre."</p><p>Player: "Can I see a source for the smoke - something burning, maybe - or is the smoke coming from solid stone?"</p><p></p><p>Here the player skips the words "I look more closely at the altar from where I'm standing" and just gets right to the point; and I don't mind this. If I-as-DM am uncertain whether the character is standing pat or moving closer, I'll just ask. And even though it's just one player asking, the whole table is likely interested in the answer.</p><p></p><p>Again with the pacing - this seems to be a theme of yours. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>It's quite realistic to posit that sometimes a character is going to take a beating simply due to sheer bad luck, and other times due to its own (via the player) misjudgement, and other times because it simply couldn't see or know what was coming. It's war, not sport. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /> By the same token, it's reasonable to assume the characters are taking some precautions, and if the players want to detail these it's well worth the time spent.</p><p></p><p>To me this needlessly provides information to the players that the characters wouldn't have, leading to some metagame headaches that could very easily have been avoided.</p><p></p><p>They talk to three shopkeepers. One of those shopkeepers is a spy for the enemy. Telegraphing that there's a spy out there somewhere is fine in some situations but not in others; placing undue emphasis on the PCs' interaction with the spy over the other two is always wrong IMO, as you're in effect leading the players (and by metagame extension, the PCs) along what amounts to a soft railroad. Put another way, emphasizing that one interaction is - though slightly more subtle - roughly equivalent to putting a sign over that shop's door sayng "THE SPY IS IN HERE!" and narrating that.</p><p></p><p>One shopkeeper could be a jolly old lady willing to chat about nothing all day if you let her.</p><p>One shopkeeper could be a sleazy guy familiar with every shady sales technique ever invented.</p><p>One shopkeeper could be a no-nonsense military veteran whose fighting days are over.</p><p></p><p>Which one's the spy, if any? By what you're saying it would be the sleazy sales guy every time, and so much for that mystery. Were it me that guy might be a potentially-time-consuming red herring, as would the talkative lady: the ex-military guy has gone rogue against his old bosses and is now a secret agent.</p><p></p><p>And if the PCs take all session and half the next trying to figure this out, so what? And if they never figure it out or completely ignore it, too bad for them. But if they do figure it out they have an advantage - they can try to charm or turn the spy, or they can feed him false info, or they can report him to the militia...all kinds of fun can be had.</p><p></p><p>Lan-"secret agent man"-efan</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 7503483, member: 29398"] Yeah, if this 'agreement' was a DM-enforced thing that would certainly count in my books as a DM flaw, under 'severe violation of player agency', that would cause me to leave a game. That's because you're too worried about getting everything done right now. If a long in-character debate is looming then pour yourself a beer, sit back, and take it easy for a while. You've always got next session, or next month, or next year....the campaign you're running is designed to last the rest of your life, isn't it? If not, why not? This is fine. But how do you get from the last bit to this in one leap? Just because I'm the player asking the questions doesn't mean I'm the only player who wants the information, it means only that I'm the one who happened to ask. Also, an action can quite often be stated more succinctly as a question and-or simply contained within it. Example: DM: "...and at the edge of your light is what might be a stone altar - it's hard to tell but there could be wispy smoke rising from its centre." Player: "Can I see a source for the smoke - something burning, maybe - or is the smoke coming from solid stone?" Here the player skips the words "I look more closely at the altar from where I'm standing" and just gets right to the point; and I don't mind this. If I-as-DM am uncertain whether the character is standing pat or moving closer, I'll just ask. And even though it's just one player asking, the whole table is likely interested in the answer. Again with the pacing - this seems to be a theme of yours. :) It's quite realistic to posit that sometimes a character is going to take a beating simply due to sheer bad luck, and other times due to its own (via the player) misjudgement, and other times because it simply couldn't see or know what was coming. It's war, not sport. :) By the same token, it's reasonable to assume the characters are taking some precautions, and if the players want to detail these it's well worth the time spent. To me this needlessly provides information to the players that the characters wouldn't have, leading to some metagame headaches that could very easily have been avoided. They talk to three shopkeepers. One of those shopkeepers is a spy for the enemy. Telegraphing that there's a spy out there somewhere is fine in some situations but not in others; placing undue emphasis on the PCs' interaction with the spy over the other two is always wrong IMO, as you're in effect leading the players (and by metagame extension, the PCs) along what amounts to a soft railroad. Put another way, emphasizing that one interaction is - though slightly more subtle - roughly equivalent to putting a sign over that shop's door sayng "THE SPY IS IN HERE!" and narrating that. One shopkeeper could be a jolly old lady willing to chat about nothing all day if you let her. One shopkeeper could be a sleazy guy familiar with every shady sales technique ever invented. One shopkeeper could be a no-nonsense military veteran whose fighting days are over. Which one's the spy, if any? By what you're saying it would be the sleazy sales guy every time, and so much for that mystery. Were it me that guy might be a potentially-time-consuming red herring, as would the talkative lady: the ex-military guy has gone rogue against his old bosses and is now a secret agent. And if the PCs take all session and half the next trying to figure this out, so what? And if they never figure it out or completely ignore it, too bad for them. But if they do figure it out they have an advantage - they can try to charm or turn the spy, or they can feed him false info, or they can report him to the militia...all kinds of fun can be had. Lan-"secret agent man"-efan [/QUOTE]
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