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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7504404" data-attributes="member: 6919838">&quot;Any player who complains about that is being a bad player.&quot;I take a slightly different slant and see that player as misunderstanding what the check is for... What success means.Remember in some gameplay (not so much in DnD) a skill check is an attempt to affect the scene, to determine an outcome. In such a game, success in a search does not mean &quot;you looked thru the safe&quot; but also &quot;and you found a clue&quot;.Compare the skill checks for searching the rubble and hunting/foraging in 5e.Both cases specific actions are declared, skills rolled vs dc set by gm, but in the search you just get told whats there while in the foraging you get to,not only find stuff but hunt/gather/harvest it... Your forage is not &quot;do i find anything&quot; but &quot;do i find, take down and gather food or water we can use? If you told a player the foraging DC was 20 due to scarcity and he got a 23 but you told him he did not find anything woryh eating or drinking - would that be a &quot;bad player&quot; too if he said &quot;but i got the 20&quot;.Is it the player's bad if hecl sees over and over foraging be a DC success means get something but reacts when a high search yields nothing or is that a case of bad gm (assign really high dc to see if something is there like with foraging in barren area&quot; or bad &quot;system&quot;?Is it wrong or bad or not 5e if a gm chooses to treat searching/investigate like survival - foraging and set a dc bssed on what the gm knows of the scene but then allows the *check* to determine the outcome? Thats why i say the example is not to me saying&nbsp; &quot;bad player&quot; just maybe misunderstanding the table rules.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7504404, member: 6919838"] "Any player who complains about that is being a bad player." I take a slightly different slant and see that player as misunderstanding what the check is for... What success means. Remember in some gameplay (not so much in DnD) a skill check is an attempt to affect the scene, to determine an outcome. In such a game, success in a search does not mean "you looked thru the safe" but also "and you found a clue". Compare the skill checks for searching the rubble and hunting/foraging in 5e. Both cases specific actions are declared, skills rolled vs dc set by gm, but in the search you just get told whats there while in the foraging you get to,not only find stuff but hunt/gather/harvest it... Your forage is not "do i find anything" but "do i find, take down and gather food or water we can use? If you told a player the foraging DC was 20 due to scarcity and he got a 23 but you told him he did not find anything woryh eating or drinking - would that be a "bad player" too if he said "but i got the 20". Is it the player's bad if hecl sees over and over foraging be a DC success means get something but reacts when a high search yields nothing or is that a case of bad gm (assign really high dc to see if something is there like with foraging in barren area" or bad "system"? Is it wrong or bad or not 5e if a gm chooses to treat searching/investigate like survival - foraging and set a dc bssed on what the gm knows of the scene but then allows the *check* to determine the outcome? Thats why i say the example is not to me saying "bad player" just maybe misunderstanding the table rules. [/QUOTE]

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