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What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7509665" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>on this and the following</p><p></p><p>"OK, so you agree that if my character concept includes having a loving family waiting for me when I return from my quest, then that is part of who my character is, and hence the GM changing/overriding that can override/distort my character concept"</p><p></p><p>and secondly this</p><p></p><p>"Change it to a noble and loving family, or an honest and loving family, then. As per my post upthread, I had in mind a revelation that a dear dad very similar to Samwise Gamgee's Gaffer was in fact a serial killer - ie something that radically undermines the PC and player conception of the family."</p><p></p><p>While i wont bother with the "override/distort" character concept stuff - let me say this...</p><p></p><p>If i as a GM agreed that your family was noble and honest" and/or that they would be waiting with open loving arms at the end etc etc etc - whatever the level of stuff you want to add - **if i agreed to that as GM** then i would as Gm be obligated to honor that agreement and it would be an abuse of my GM trust to do so to you as a player. </p><p></p><p>However, let me be equally clear - you do not have the right to demand it be accepted. it would be an abuse of the player trust if you present this as a must be and jump to dick moves type sentiment if the Gm says no. </p><p></p><p>if either of these were presented to me i would ask a lot more detail and questions about it - to get a much better idea of how far it goes.</p><p></p><p>Are you really saying there are no blacksheep in your family?</p><p>Are you really saying none of your family has any hidden secrets?</p><p>Are you really saying your village has never been and never will be invaded?</p><p>Are you really saying there is zero chance that your family can be conned into something not so very noble whuile you are gone?</p><p>Are you really saying they wont be getting sick and ill enough that you need to help them or that they wont die of natural causes or accidents - or get serious hurt?</p><p></p><p>etc etc etc...</p><p></p><p>If it came down to that you were esentially wanting to add Village of the Pleasantville black-and-white Cleacers-on-main-street perfection into the full technicolor 70s grindhouse setting - i would likely say no - not yes - because it does not mesh with the campaign theme and tone - and if your character was built as "someone out of pleasantville" then doubly so.</p><p></p><p>The other question i would almost certainly ask is "Your character is part of your family so... you are planning on playing your character to that same noble and honest standard, right? After all, they are all noble and honest and loving and incorruptible and un-connable and they will be welcoming you home at the end so that *must mean* your character will be living up to that standard, right? They never break character or cross the line - so your character wont either, right?"</p><p></p><p>not that either "yes" or "no" from you on those is automatically "ok" or "not ok" but it has to be considered when looking at the family dynamic you are building to try to get inserted into my world.</p><p></p><p>i mean, its not like you would think "hey, my horse or motorcycle cannot be stolen in game" and then enter the game and decide in play "but i can sure go steal that other guys horse and motorcycle when it suits me.", right? Who would not be Ok with being told "others in the game can make the exact same choices you did to limit how others can interact with their stuff". right?</p><p></p><p>Summary - if the Gm agrees with the player on points going forward, they should feel and be obligated to honor that agreement. But the Gm should be allowed to get as much detail as they wish before agreeing *and* to not agree. the player expressing his desire for this to be the case is not sufficient to make it so. Obviously that agreement can be either case-by-case or more formalized rules.</p><p></p><p>In my current campaign, i offered early on the "you can invent a world/race" to my scif players in a traveller/space opera with certain restrictions and a promise to try and work it in understanding it may need tweaking. They are now on the cusp of encountering some of those. But it was done *by agreement* not by *insistence.*</p><p></p><p>Meanwhile - on another note - in discussions over supper today my players loved the warlock patron pitch i had for one Anya Dowd - Warlock - whose patron or patron emissary was a shifting white rabbit/rabbit-girl named Harley (not a typo of Harvey - Harley) who referred to her/its own boss as "Puddin'" and where 8one* of the ongoing requests and favors was "do not eat rabbits, do not kill rabbits and helps rabbits when you can "while we d not want to upset the balance of nature, we do want you to help out by putting your thumb on the scale in favor of rabbits when you can." Almost immediately one of my players chimed in with "hey that doesnt eat rabbits thing, that could get - noticed, right? Especially if Harley and Puddin' have more than one patron?" I nodded affirmative of course. i love my players - especially when they peg all the embedded cultural refs</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7509665, member: 6919838"] on this and the following "OK, so you agree that if my character concept includes having a loving family waiting for me when I return from my quest, then that is part of who my character is, and hence the GM changing/overriding that can override/distort my character concept" and secondly this "Change it to a noble and loving family, or an honest and loving family, then. As per my post upthread, I had in mind a revelation that a dear dad very similar to Samwise Gamgee's Gaffer was in fact a serial killer - ie something that radically undermines the PC and player conception of the family." While i wont bother with the "override/distort" character concept stuff - let me say this... If i as a GM agreed that your family was noble and honest" and/or that they would be waiting with open loving arms at the end etc etc etc - whatever the level of stuff you want to add - **if i agreed to that as GM** then i would as Gm be obligated to honor that agreement and it would be an abuse of my GM trust to do so to you as a player. However, let me be equally clear - you do not have the right to demand it be accepted. it would be an abuse of the player trust if you present this as a must be and jump to dick moves type sentiment if the Gm says no. if either of these were presented to me i would ask a lot more detail and questions about it - to get a much better idea of how far it goes. Are you really saying there are no blacksheep in your family? Are you really saying none of your family has any hidden secrets? Are you really saying your village has never been and never will be invaded? Are you really saying there is zero chance that your family can be conned into something not so very noble whuile you are gone? Are you really saying they wont be getting sick and ill enough that you need to help them or that they wont die of natural causes or accidents - or get serious hurt? etc etc etc... If it came down to that you were esentially wanting to add Village of the Pleasantville black-and-white Cleacers-on-main-street perfection into the full technicolor 70s grindhouse setting - i would likely say no - not yes - because it does not mesh with the campaign theme and tone - and if your character was built as "someone out of pleasantville" then doubly so. The other question i would almost certainly ask is "Your character is part of your family so... you are planning on playing your character to that same noble and honest standard, right? After all, they are all noble and honest and loving and incorruptible and un-connable and they will be welcoming you home at the end so that *must mean* your character will be living up to that standard, right? They never break character or cross the line - so your character wont either, right?" not that either "yes" or "no" from you on those is automatically "ok" or "not ok" but it has to be considered when looking at the family dynamic you are building to try to get inserted into my world. i mean, its not like you would think "hey, my horse or motorcycle cannot be stolen in game" and then enter the game and decide in play "but i can sure go steal that other guys horse and motorcycle when it suits me.", right? Who would not be Ok with being told "others in the game can make the exact same choices you did to limit how others can interact with their stuff". right? Summary - if the Gm agrees with the player on points going forward, they should feel and be obligated to honor that agreement. But the Gm should be allowed to get as much detail as they wish before agreeing *and* to not agree. the player expressing his desire for this to be the case is not sufficient to make it so. Obviously that agreement can be either case-by-case or more formalized rules. In my current campaign, i offered early on the "you can invent a world/race" to my scif players in a traveller/space opera with certain restrictions and a promise to try and work it in understanding it may need tweaking. They are now on the cusp of encountering some of those. But it was done *by agreement* not by *insistence.* Meanwhile - on another note - in discussions over supper today my players loved the warlock patron pitch i had for one Anya Dowd - Warlock - whose patron or patron emissary was a shifting white rabbit/rabbit-girl named Harley (not a typo of Harvey - Harley) who referred to her/its own boss as "Puddin'" and where 8one* of the ongoing requests and favors was "do not eat rabbits, do not kill rabbits and helps rabbits when you can "while we d not want to upset the balance of nature, we do want you to help out by putting your thumb on the scale in favor of rabbits when you can." Almost immediately one of my players chimed in with "hey that doesnt eat rabbits thing, that could get - noticed, right? Especially if Harley and Puddin' have more than one patron?" I nodded affirmative of course. i love my players - especially when they peg all the embedded cultural refs . [/QUOTE]
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