Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7514098" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Why do you think the world "you" refers to in your sentence?</p><p></p><p>Here is what <em>I</em> am sceptical of: that there is such a thing as <em>farily refereeing</em> the Duchess's reaction, which is comparable to <em>fairly refereeing</em> the result of poking a stone with a 10' pole. I think the reason is obvious, but in case it's not I'll spell it out: the reactions of stones to being poked are fairly simple, fairly obvious, and - once the size and position of the stone are known - generally agreed upon. Adjudication of dungeoneering depends upon this fact - we all know that poked stones will move (if they are mobile and not too big) and thereby fall to the floor, trigger traps, etc.</p><p></p><p>Whereas the reactions of people given bad news about their intimate relationships are incredibly complex and very hard to predict <em>even for those with a rich knowledge of the person and the circumstances</em>, and (unlike the case with stones) it is highly unlikely that any GM's notes contain that sort of rich information. Thus, the GM deciding that the Duchess does X rather than Y is <em>not</em> a case of the GM fairly adjudicating the fiction. It's a case of the GM unilaterally deciding how the fiction shall unfold.</p><p></p><p>Telling me that <em>the Duchess is a NPC</em> doesn't give me any reason to want to GM a game in this fashion, nor to play in a game GMed in this fashion. And - unsurprisingly - RPGs have had devices to take this sort of decision-making out of the exclusive hands of the GM from the very beginning. Consider reaction rolls. Classic Traveller (Book 3, p 22, 1978 printing of 1977 edition) says the following:</p><p></p><p style="margin-left: 20px">When non-player characters are encountered, their reactions will dictate their activity in terms of business deals, violence, assistance, charity, cooperation and a number of other actions. When an encounter occurs, throw two dice and consult the reaction table. . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">DMs [= dice modifiers] can and should be created to deal with specific situations . . .</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px"></p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Reactions are used by the referee and by players as a guide to the probable actions of individuals. They may be used to determine the response of a person to business offers or deals . . .</p><p></p><p>The rules don't expressly address what happens if a PC reveals to a NPC that her husband is having an affair, but they are easily extrapolated to deal with that case: the better the reaction roll, the closer the reaction of the NPC to that which the player hoped for (that being analogous to agreeing to a business offer or deal, or otherwise cooperating). And the player can also attempt to influence the roll with appropriate DMs, whether established by skilled play of the fiction (buttering up the Duchess) or by pointing to appropriate skills (in this context, Carousing and Liaison would both seem apposite) or other attributes (eg Social Standing).</p><p></p><p>Is it? Or is it realistic that a skilled combatant can recognise which attacks that are targetting Tara pose a real threat?</p><p></p><p>As I said, there are other systems where the threat that the attack poses to Tara can be known <em>after</em> the target is declared but <em>before</em> the dice are rolled - eg because there is the intermediate stage of putting dice into a pool; or because a successful roll to attack doesn't move straight on to damage but triggers a parry or dodge reaction, which the readied defence could contribute to. That D&D has no such stage is an oddity of its mechanics, and nothing to do with what is or isn't realistic.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7514098, member: 42582"] Why do you think the world "you" refers to in your sentence? Here is what [I]I[/I] am sceptical of: that there is such a thing as [I]farily refereeing[/I] the Duchess's reaction, which is comparable to [I]fairly refereeing[/I] the result of poking a stone with a 10' pole. I think the reason is obvious, but in case it's not I'll spell it out: the reactions of stones to being poked are fairly simple, fairly obvious, and - once the size and position of the stone are known - generally agreed upon. Adjudication of dungeoneering depends upon this fact - we all know that poked stones will move (if they are mobile and not too big) and thereby fall to the floor, trigger traps, etc. Whereas the reactions of people given bad news about their intimate relationships are incredibly complex and very hard to predict [I]even for those with a rich knowledge of the person and the circumstances[/I], and (unlike the case with stones) it is highly unlikely that any GM's notes contain that sort of rich information. Thus, the GM deciding that the Duchess does X rather than Y is [I]not[/I] a case of the GM fairly adjudicating the fiction. It's a case of the GM unilaterally deciding how the fiction shall unfold. Telling me that [I]the Duchess is a NPC[/I] doesn't give me any reason to want to GM a game in this fashion, nor to play in a game GMed in this fashion. And - unsurprisingly - RPGs have had devices to take this sort of decision-making out of the exclusive hands of the GM from the very beginning. Consider reaction rolls. Classic Traveller (Book 3, p 22, 1978 printing of 1977 edition) says the following: [indent]When non-player characters are encountered, their reactions will dictate their activity in terms of business deals, violence, assistance, charity, cooperation and a number of other actions. When an encounter occurs, throw two dice and consult the reaction table. . . . DMs [= dice modifiers] can and should be created to deal with specific situations . . . Reactions are used by the referee and by players as a guide to the probable actions of individuals. They may be used to determine the response of a person to business offers or deals . . .[/indent] The rules don't expressly address what happens if a PC reveals to a NPC that her husband is having an affair, but they are easily extrapolated to deal with that case: the better the reaction roll, the closer the reaction of the NPC to that which the player hoped for (that being analogous to agreeing to a business offer or deal, or otherwise cooperating). And the player can also attempt to influence the roll with appropriate DMs, whether established by skilled play of the fiction (buttering up the Duchess) or by pointing to appropriate skills (in this context, Carousing and Liaison would both seem apposite) or other attributes (eg Social Standing). Is it? Or is it realistic that a skilled combatant can recognise which attacks that are targetting Tara pose a real threat? As I said, there are other systems where the threat that the attack poses to Tara can be known [I]after[/I] the target is declared but [I]before[/I] the dice are rolled - eg because there is the intermediate stage of putting dice into a pool; or because a successful roll to attack doesn't move straight on to damage but triggers a parry or dodge reaction, which the readied defence could contribute to. That D&D has no such stage is an oddity of its mechanics, and nothing to do with what is or isn't realistic. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?
Top