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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 9758163" data-attributes="member: 177">I did say stuff to that effect, I think.  There is no direct evidence in the text for it that I know of, so I think the point stands - Tolkien isn't a guy who thinks of humans as supreme and awesome, finding out the secrets of the Universe for themselves.  That's not his ethos.  He's much more about the power of the prime mover being handed down over and over again, diminishing a bit each time, until we wind up with an entirely mundane world like we have today.The bodies of kings and nobles.  The spirits to animate them were sent by the Witch-king.It was helpful as a launching point for the history - the people who made those barrows were folks that had been interacting with Valar and elves for thousands of years, since the First Age, not independent people who had to work out magic for themselves.With a touch of elven blood, but yes, mortals.But, again, you seem to still be mistaking my point.  I never said there were no humans who new how to work magic - I said there was no evidence that they worked it out independently.  And I said that in support of the notion that it seems that "wizards" means something specific to Tolkien that is not the common wizard trope we have in D&D and much of the rest of modern fantasy.  That should not be surprising - Tolkien was not writing in the midst of modern fantasy.  Using the term as he did wasn't putting him in conflict of genre expectations, as the genre as we understand it now didn't exist at the time.  So, we should not expect or insist that Tolkien conforms.</blockquote>

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