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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 3372021" data-attributes="member: 4937">Believe me, I've wrote the treatise (go back to my first post and see me saying exactly these sorts of things).  But my point that you are quoting was made not in context of defending the fact that guns don't work in a setting, but assuming guns do exist (which is what this thread is about), defending that muskets work in the setting but that a breech loading cartridge rifle doesn't.  Once you introduce an explosive to the setting, then guns become much harder to explain out of existance.  Not impossible, and I'm sure someone as cunning as yourself can find away, but harder.  And the problem is not with the DC that is set, because the incremental improvements are not hard and any hard core min/maxer will beat any DC you are likely to set, but that the incremental improvements are hard to discover.  It's not that you need to set something like DC 40 or DC 50 (which is ridiculous BTW, because it implies that progress is impossible), but that you need to set hundreds of idea rolls (each requirinig days of research time taking 20) as hurdles.  That's where the smart player is going to get you.  He's going to argue for 1 roll at some high DC, when what it should be is many rolls at a moderate DC.  Skill isn't the issue.  Time is.  It took alot of time not because it need really smart people (what the PC will argue) but because it took alot of work and trial and error (what the PC is going to try to short cut using his OOC knowledge). Go read my first post again and tell me that I've a problem inventing/coping with a universe that runs on different physical premises.Yes, but neither are accurate and more importantly, they are 5th and 6th level spells, which puts them up at the level were 'save or die' spells become available anyway.  So if I can justify to the player that his save or die spell is _at least_ as difficult of an effect as Baneful Polymorph or Disentigrate or similar high level spells, and has no more dramatic effects than that then the problem we are talking about goes away.  In fact, your counter-argument is exactly the sort of responce I the DM would hope for from a player, because I can nail you with your own argument.  "Gee. Your right.  Ok, you've discovered a new 6th level spell - 'Brain Fry'.  I'll get back with you on the mechanics next session."</blockquote>

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