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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Steverooo" data-source="post: 2765209" data-attributes="member: 9410">To be players' advocate, I fail to see any game balance issues.  The Rogue has Craft (Trapmaking), @ 1 Rank/Skill Point, and the Barbarian, Cleric of the Travel Domain, Druid, and Ranger have Survival @ 1 Rank/Skill Point.  Likewise, the Fighter, etc., could take Craft (Trapmaking), and be in "Class A" with the Rogue, while other PCs with Survival are in "Class B"."Class A" can set (Cross-)Bow-traps, deadfalls, (spiked) limb-traps, net-traps, (spiked) pits, and simple or complex snares (and note, here, that I include tripwires, alarms, and the old "rope stretched across the road" among the simple snares), AS WELL AS spending at least 1,000 GPs and a week (or more) to set more complex traps which the "Class B" group can not.  If a Ranger wants to sit down and hammer a sheet of steel and some wire into a mechanical bear trap, then he will need Craft (Trapmaking).  If he wants to set one of the above, he should be able to do it with his Survival skill.Of the traps, above, four do some damage, two do none, and one could.  Assuming pits less than 30' deep, none will do more than 3D8 damage (on a critical), or 1D8 normally (3D6 for a 30' Pit)...  A Crossbow- or Bow-trap will do the weapon's damage, if it hits.  A deadfall will do falling damage, depending upon mass and distance fallen, usually 2D6 or less.  A Limb-trap will do 1D6 Blunt, 1D8 Blunt/Piercing, if spiked.  A Net-trap will do simple entangling, and COULD be set up in such a manner as to cause either falling damage when you try to climb out (if you fail a Climb check), or sling the net into some spikes for another 1D6 damage.  A Pit-trap usually only does 1D6/10' falling damage, but may also be spiked, and/or hold the NPCs, if they can't climb out.  A Simple snare will do no damage at all, unless it catches an unintelligent creature about the neck, and it continues to struggle until it kills itself.  A tripwire, etc., might cause 1D6 to a running opponent.  Complex snares can whip an opponent off their feet, dangling them in the air, doing no damage unless it has them by the neck, or (again) sling them into some sharpened tree branches, doing spike damage.As for these being useless against intelligent prey, they were used in Nam, by the VC, and proved quite effective against (presumably intelligent) American soldiers.  I leave their particularly nasty version of slow-killing infectious coating for the spikes out!Why?  The Ranger (and Druid) have Entangle, as well as Snare, and are the ones who will be memorizing and casting them.  Besides, your A Priori assumptions ("w/o skill ranks, time & $$") are all wrong!  I just say that 1,000 GP and one WEEK of time is ridiculous!So, let's call these "CR 0" traps, and state that they all require the use of Survival OR Craft (Trapmaking) skill, a knife or axe, snare wire or cord, and "appropriate materials for the trap to be made": A croobow and bolt for a Crossbow-trap; a string and arrow for a Bow-trap; nothing additional for a deadfall, (spiked) Limb-trap, or Simple/Complex Snares; a net for a Net-trap; a shovel or spade for a Pit-trap (unless you encounter a naturally-occurring pit).  Then, all you need is a table showing the type of trap and the time needed to create it from natural materials, along with the Search & Disable Device DCs.  It all fits quite nicely with the Traps CRs, as well as the text of the Detect Snares & Pits spell!As these are all mechanically simple traps, the Search DCs will all be 20 or less.  (It is DC:20 for a covered Pit-trap, I know, but the rest would have to be created...  DC:20 sounds good to me, DC:15 if a Hide check fails to conceal it.)  Compare this to the DCs on the Snare spell... and we haven't even brought up the Reflex Saves for avoiding these traps, yet!And, again, a week to set a snare, with penalties, is ridiculous, even if you allow it to be reduced for "qualified" help (whatever that is).  I can set a simple snare in about ten seconds, once I have the materials.  I can anchor it in 20 or less.  The first time I ever tried to set a mechanically complex snare (dangle & strangler), it took me less than 10 minutes, when I wasn't sure that I knew what I was doing (it worked, too!).If a PC wants to rig a complex trap, like those in the DMG, most especially those involving magic, but more generally anything complex and mechanical (and outside my experience), I am fine with using the DMG times and prices.  For things that I know I can do, my-unheroic-self, thank you very much, it strains my suspension of disbelief to be told that I (my PC) can't do it.Furthermore, Survival skill can be used to gather food & water (which the Clerics can do away with the need for, with a 0-level Orison, Create Food & Water, that any first level Cleric or Druid will have!), or to resist heat and cold, or to Track, or find directions/avoid getting lost... none of which comes up very often, in-game.  I don't think that allowing the Ranger (or Barbarian, Cleric of the Travel Domain, Druid, or any other PC with Survival or Craft (Trapmaking) skill) to set a few small, low-damage, and easily-detected-by-their-peers traps steps on their toes any more than the Clerics' Orison steps on the Ranger's.  Your Mileage May Vary, of course.</blockquote>

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