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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9691240" data-attributes="member: 18">Your impression was rather inaccurate, but I do appreciate you admitting you didn't play it and that it "looked like" these things occurred rather than claiming them as facts as people sometimes do. Bards were indeed pushed out of PHB1, it's true but not because they weren't "combat oriented" enough (AEDU and roles ensured every class was combat-competent) rather because Warlords essentially took their place - I don't think that was a good decision but it was understandable. When they were re-added, about 9 months after release, they were imho easily the best version of Bards that had existed at that point, far, far better than 2E or particularly the deeply awful 3E and 3.5E versions ("Sneak, sneak, sneak!"). I say that as someone who has played Bards extensively in every edition from 2E onwards (like, my primary class). Utility magic was alive and well, but was Rituals rather than AEDU spells, and far more accessible to more classes than in any other edition. I would actually say 4E handled utility magic far better than other editions, which have it competing with combat spells for slots, and also frequently being overpowered AND boring in the narrow uses it does have (which is a double-crime of game design). I honestly can't remember missing any 3.XE utility spells. Social elements I don't get the complaint - they literally had everything 3.XE and more, socially! They weren't added later either - they were there at launch. Hell if anything, Skill Challenges meant 4E could handle social stuff better than 3.XE's constant "Roll Diplomacy".This isn't a 4E vs DH difference - 4E is still the most similar to DH even in this particular regard - it at least has theoretically similar stuff. Whereas 1E? 2E? 3.XE? Nothing at all like that. 5E has little to none as well. What you're illustrating here is a fundamental D&D vs DH difference.</blockquote>

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