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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9773248" data-attributes="member: 42582">An addendum to the above post: upthread someone talked about sim vs "gamism" in the context of classic Gygaxian D&D.For the game to work as a game - that is, for the players to be able to do the "skilled play" thing - it has to be possible for the players to reasonably infer things about the fiction. Eg what will happen if they try and open a door, or if they topple a great statue, or take off their armour so they can swim across a lake, etc. This is where a degree of fidelity to common sense comes in; it makes players' reasoning possible.Where "tricks" come in, as a concept in classic D&D game play, is that they undercut some of that common sense reasoning. Eg walking through an archway doesn't take the player to its other side, as common sense would suggest, but rather teleports the player to someone else in the dungeon. Too much of this sort of thing, and the game becomes unplayable. But a bit of it, judiciously done and riffing on past play in ways that players can reasonably make sense of and respond to, make the game more challenging and more fun.A game that relies less on the players to reason about the fiction to solve problems and make plans can get away with more departures from common sense. Instances I can think of from my own RPGing are Marvel Heroic RP (super-heroes and common sense are perfect strangers!), and high-level 4e D&D. Even Classic Traveller to a degree.EDIT: An addendum to the addendum: classic D&D doesn't generally make PC emotional state a factor in anything (it can effect some monsters, eg dragons defending their children, and some NPCs too, eg via morale and loyalty rules). Common sense suggests that this should be a factor, but given that players don't need to make inferences about how their PCs will respond to action declarations - their PCs are very much the players' pawns - common sense does not need to apply!This is an illustration of why I think it's a mistake to infer from those elements of fidelity to common sense that are found in classic D&D, to any sort of genuine sim agenda.</blockquote>

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