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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fenris-77" data-source="post: 9844666" data-attributes="member: 6993955">So I'll grant you the efficiency argument, but not that a move from more efficient to less efficient explains the function of RPG rules in the same way it does for chess. Mostly because I don't think efficiency as an idea carries a lot of water for the RPG example in the same way it does for chess. RPGs don't have a win condition in the same way chess does, and thus the arrangement of pieces in a winning configuration example really doesn't work very well. IMO anyway.I think you'd have to do a lot more work to prove that even allocating roles is somehow less efficient than not having them. As far as the goal of freeform play goes I think you need to account for the setting itself in addition to the doings of certain protagonists. Exploring the setting itself (and I don't just mean physical exploration) is very much central to RPG play. The actions of the players are obviously also key, but don't really cover things like "let's find out what's behind that door" or "I wonder what the odd scientist is up to?". This is the bit I always assumed your use of "play to find out" at least in part referred to.Let me try to explain this in a different way. I am Biff the fighter, and I'm in a dungeon room with my trusty compatriots, and there is a closed door. I declare that Biff will open the door to find out what lies beyond. The GM them narrates the new scene. Do we really think that at any point there that the thing being imagined is Biff physically opening the door, or that the picture being built in our imaginations by the GMs subsequent narration is somehow centered on the (currently inactive) player avatars? I don't think so, or at least it's not obviously the case. The GM describes the room and its contents plus atmosphere and whatever and that is what the players are imagining. This example covers lots of situation in lots of different RPGs.I'll freely admit that there are other scenes in which the actions of the protagonist are central, but I think these are much more likely to be the result of GM adjudication after a player action declaration. You need both those kinds of 'scenes' for RPG play, I think. Usually a game moves back and forth between these two types but you don't get the second without the first. That's why I remain convinced that any account of RPG play needs to address them both.</blockquote>

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