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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ECMO3" data-source="post: 8411614" data-attributes="member: 7030563">I don't think they are as good as the fighter because of the extra ASI and the ability to hit 20 by 8th level while taking a non-combat feat.  Also some of the fighter subclasses give ribbons or skills that are missing from most Paladins (although admittedly I have not seen a lot of Paladins played).  Certainly you can build a fighter to be a 1-dimensional combat machine, but compared to a Paladin, I think it is easier to build them to be broader without sacrificing as much of their combat abilities.   For example a dex-based high stealth fighter can still be the best archer in the game while also being a good scout.  Take your extra feat to pick up skill expert or skulker and you can go from being a good scout to being the best and competing with the Rogue who took expertise and if you start with 17 dex you can pick up both of these by 8th, still have a 20 Dex and be better than the Rogue.  It is much harder to do that kind of thing on a Paladin build.Champion is getting half his proficiency on all strength and dex checks, Rune Knight and Psi warrior are bringing bonuses to several skills or checks, Eldritch knight has cantrips without sacrificing a fighting style, Arcan Archer has an extra skill proficiency... The spells help, although they don't get a lot and there is a high cost to using them.  Like I said Paladins can be a decent face because of their typically high charisma, but a Rouge with a 14 Charisma is generally going to outdo them in social situations and can outdo them while also being pretty darn good at Stealth and Acrobatics in addition to picking up even more skills or bonuses with subclasses like scout, soulkinfe or Phantom.  They can do that pretty easily while also maxing dexterity for combat.  Bards and to a lessor extent Rangers can do  this as well.  In terms of base class, all those classes are weaker than a Paladin in combat though so it makes sense.</blockquote>

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