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what do you want in a mass combat system?
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<blockquote data-quote="mattcolville" data-source="post: 253610" data-attributes="member: 1300"><p>I don't know how to answer this. D&D is an abstraction. It's one that *doesn't have rules* for armies vs armies. When you say: "would the D&D rules decide that, or some artifact of the Book of War?" You imply the D&D rules *could* decide that.</p><p></p><p>The Book of War is like the Psionicists Handbook. If you wanted to be a psionicist before the handbook, you couldn't. There were no rules for it. If you want your army of thousands to fight someone else's army of thousands, you can't. There are no rules for it. The Book of War gives you those rules, just like the Psionicists Handbook gave you rules for Psionics. </p><p></p><p>If there *were* rules in D&D for mass combat, this thread wouldn't exist.</p><p></p><p>There are many people who don't want rules for Armies vs Armies (which we have a word for: war) they want rules for My PC Takes On An Army Of Thousands And Wins. That's a different product. The Book of War is about war. It's not the Book of Your PC Victorious Against An Army Of Thousands.</p><p></p><p>I, personally, think the idea of a single individual standing alone against an army is. . .not an interesting one. Why would the army stop and fight you? Why wouldn't they just swarm past you, take the few dozen kills you'll inflict, and take whatever it was you were defending? Why don't they just swarm you and tie you to a rock?</p><p></p><p>I have a rather oblique piece of datum to report. My favorite minis game is a little known FASA product called Vor. There's a Vor mini called Razorfang who is, literally, indestructable and furthermore capable of instantly killing virtually any unit on the field. There's some hyperbole in there, I don't want to explain all the rules, but you get my drift.</p><p></p><p>It took awhile, but eventually those fighting against him time after time began to realize that ignoring the beast was the best option. Games only last 4-7 turns and in that time, the beast could only attack a few individuals out of several dozen.</p><p></p><p>Without going into a lot of detail, the Book of War is like that. You're only going to be able to move so far and attack so many dudes. Let's say you take out 500 men over the course of the battle. That's reasonable. A fighter with Whirlwind attack, against oppoents who, every round, fill up all the squares around him so he never has to move could kill 480 people in an hour. That presumes he never misses and each blow is fatal and he never critically fumbles. Well that's a little less than 5 units in the Book of War and even then it's moderately unrealistic. I think you could easily run a battle with 10,000 men on a side. If that's true, the fact that one dude killed 480 people isn't a deal breaker.</p><p></p><p>But I really think the Book of War is going to be fun and many, many people will like it. People who open it up and see the Battle Magic and rules for Elven Light Cavalry and rules for starting your own country are going to want to *use* those rules and do those things. Furthermore, a lot of the design data is in the book, so people can convert spells from other sourcebooks and monsters from other monster books. </p><p></p><p>And, ultimately, your PC can ride out, challenge the leader of the opposition, and—if victorious—cause the opposing army to rout. Given this—and the other ways PCs affect battle by casting spells and leading units—I don't think people will feel as though their characters can't do anything in the game.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="mattcolville, post: 253610, member: 1300"] I don't know how to answer this. D&D is an abstraction. It's one that *doesn't have rules* for armies vs armies. When you say: "would the D&D rules decide that, or some artifact of the Book of War?" You imply the D&D rules *could* decide that. The Book of War is like the Psionicists Handbook. If you wanted to be a psionicist before the handbook, you couldn't. There were no rules for it. If you want your army of thousands to fight someone else's army of thousands, you can't. There are no rules for it. The Book of War gives you those rules, just like the Psionicists Handbook gave you rules for Psionics. If there *were* rules in D&D for mass combat, this thread wouldn't exist. There are many people who don't want rules for Armies vs Armies (which we have a word for: war) they want rules for My PC Takes On An Army Of Thousands And Wins. That's a different product. The Book of War is about war. It's not the Book of Your PC Victorious Against An Army Of Thousands. I, personally, think the idea of a single individual standing alone against an army is. . .not an interesting one. Why would the army stop and fight you? Why wouldn't they just swarm past you, take the few dozen kills you'll inflict, and take whatever it was you were defending? Why don't they just swarm you and tie you to a rock? I have a rather oblique piece of datum to report. My favorite minis game is a little known FASA product called Vor. There's a Vor mini called Razorfang who is, literally, indestructable and furthermore capable of instantly killing virtually any unit on the field. There's some hyperbole in there, I don't want to explain all the rules, but you get my drift. It took awhile, but eventually those fighting against him time after time began to realize that ignoring the beast was the best option. Games only last 4-7 turns and in that time, the beast could only attack a few individuals out of several dozen. Without going into a lot of detail, the Book of War is like that. You're only going to be able to move so far and attack so many dudes. Let's say you take out 500 men over the course of the battle. That's reasonable. A fighter with Whirlwind attack, against oppoents who, every round, fill up all the squares around him so he never has to move could kill 480 people in an hour. That presumes he never misses and each blow is fatal and he never critically fumbles. Well that's a little less than 5 units in the Book of War and even then it's moderately unrealistic. I think you could easily run a battle with 10,000 men on a side. If that's true, the fact that one dude killed 480 people isn't a deal breaker. But I really think the Book of War is going to be fun and many, many people will like it. People who open it up and see the Battle Magic and rules for Elven Light Cavalry and rules for starting your own country are going to want to *use* those rules and do those things. Furthermore, a lot of the design data is in the book, so people can convert spells from other sourcebooks and monsters from other monster books. And, ultimately, your PC can ride out, challenge the leader of the opposition, and—if victorious—cause the opposing army to rout. Given this—and the other ways PCs affect battle by casting spells and leading units—I don't think people will feel as though their characters can't do anything in the game. [/QUOTE]
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