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What do you want out of crafting rules?
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<blockquote data-quote="Xetheral" data-source="post: 8215517" data-attributes="member: 6802765"><p>I think there's a difference of perspective here. You seem to be saying that a <em>player</em> can design a character from level 1 to be able to make a particular item, and then wait until that character is high enough level to have a bonus large enough to have a sufficiently high chance of making that item. You're basically saying that the player can make a character who can eventually make a particular item with a high chance of success.</p><p></p><p>While true, that's not really a rebuttal to the objection. The perspective behind the objection to requiring ability checks is that a particular already-made <em>character</em> has an almost fixed chance of success at creating a particular item. There is little <em>that character</em> can do IC to increase the odds of personally crafting that item other than gathering sufficient duplicate ingredients to be able to make multiple attempts. (Or get someone else with better bonuses to do the actual crafting, but that doesn't help with personal crafting.) So, for a particular character, the "challenge" you're creating by requiring a check isn't to take IC actions to increase their odds of success on the difficult attempt (because 5e includes very few non-trivial options for doing so), but rather it's the challenge of crafting at sufficient scale to ensure you get at least one completely successful product with no limitations or drawbacks.</p><p></p><p>In other words, your goal of requiring a check seems to be to represent the difficult nature of the crafting process. But thanks to the 5e mechanics there isn't any way to personally get better at that process other than waiting to be higher level, so the difficulty you're adding doesn't come with a challenge to overcome that difficulty, because doing so is impossible. So you're effectively adding to the difficulty of gathering (sufficient quantities of) ingredients, rather than your goal of making the crafting process itself more difficult.</p><p></p><p>To make a modern analogy: you're confronting crafters with a low-yield production process, in a system that favors increasing the size of production runs rather than improving yield. That seems contrary to your goal.</p><p></p><p>Here's a possible solution: include optional additional steps in the construction process to decrease the DC of the checks. If those steps are disproportately costly or inefficient (in time, money, opportunity cost, etc.) they don't detract from the usual route of making the item, but do allow characters to take actions in the game world to address the challenge provided by the required checks.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Xetheral, post: 8215517, member: 6802765"] I think there's a difference of perspective here. You seem to be saying that a [I]player[/I] can design a character from level 1 to be able to make a particular item, and then wait until that character is high enough level to have a bonus large enough to have a sufficiently high chance of making that item. You're basically saying that the player can make a character who can eventually make a particular item with a high chance of success. While true, that's not really a rebuttal to the objection. The perspective behind the objection to requiring ability checks is that a particular already-made [I]character[/I] has an almost fixed chance of success at creating a particular item. There is little [I]that character[/I] can do IC to increase the odds of personally crafting that item other than gathering sufficient duplicate ingredients to be able to make multiple attempts. (Or get someone else with better bonuses to do the actual crafting, but that doesn't help with personal crafting.) So, for a particular character, the "challenge" you're creating by requiring a check isn't to take IC actions to increase their odds of success on the difficult attempt (because 5e includes very few non-trivial options for doing so), but rather it's the challenge of crafting at sufficient scale to ensure you get at least one completely successful product with no limitations or drawbacks. In other words, your goal of requiring a check seems to be to represent the difficult nature of the crafting process. But thanks to the 5e mechanics there isn't any way to personally get better at that process other than waiting to be higher level, so the difficulty you're adding doesn't come with a challenge to overcome that difficulty, because doing so is impossible. So you're effectively adding to the difficulty of gathering (sufficient quantities of) ingredients, rather than your goal of making the crafting process itself more difficult. To make a modern analogy: you're confronting crafters with a low-yield production process, in a system that favors increasing the size of production runs rather than improving yield. That seems contrary to your goal. Here's a possible solution: include optional additional steps in the construction process to decrease the DC of the checks. If those steps are disproportately costly or inefficient (in time, money, opportunity cost, etc.) they don't detract from the usual route of making the item, but do allow characters to take actions in the game world to address the challenge provided by the required checks. [/QUOTE]
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What do you want out of crafting rules?
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