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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Abstruse" data-source="post: 5939677" data-attributes="member: 6669048">Yay, this is going to be a long one...Which is exactly my argument against the paladin. "Well, we had a paladin in the other editions so we have to put one in this one" isn't an argument, it's ticking off a checklist.That's background and fluff. I can easily say that my warpriest cleric was chosen by Moradin at a young age and trained dutifully in the martial ways of his deity, gaining insight as well as combat training. He is the physical embodiment of ideals of Moradin, protecting the defenseless and holding the line against all the evils under the mountain even at his own sacrifice. There, that's my backstory that fulfills your idea of a paladin and leads to the exact same feel and roleplay, but uses the Moradin cleric pregen. You can't arbitrarily assign a backstory to one class or another and then point to it as proof that you're right. My cleric is suited to his deity, which is a warrior and defender. How exactly would a paladin of the same deity differ?So we're back to the Lawful Good Holy Knight in Shining Armor with a Magic Horsie. That's what I mean about flexibility. Can you have a paladin that doesn't fit that archetype? Otherwise, the build is too rigid to need to be an independent class. You have to be able to account for different deities to be chosen and different themes to be applied. If I put the thief theme on a paladin, is it still a paladin? If not, then paladin is a build and not a class. (Note: That's only an example of one theme. Replace "thief" with any other theme that could be applied and see if it works.)Argumentum ad reducto. You're taking my argument, reducing it to its furthest extremes, and then criticizing the result. It's a logical fallacy and won't convince anyone. That's why I make the specific point about flexibility. If paladin is a class rather than just a specific build or a theme, that means it must be able to have various themes applied to it that still hold up to the archetype of that class.No, mechanics are the core of the argument. Wizards of the Coast is drawing a line between what is and is not a class. That is a decision that is based on mechanics. Any character can have flavor or feel added to it via backstory and roleplaying. But in order to be justified as a class, it needs to be able to stand alone on its own as a separate entity from the other classes. Otherwise, you're just reprinting the same material under a different chapter heading. Thief should not be a class when there's already a rogue, no matter how many times you say a thief is different because he specifically steals things and breaks into places, while a rogue is more of a charismatic treasure hunter. It's still the same class just two different builds.And now we switch to a detailed reply to a completely different post...Limiting it to forces of corruption and evil limits it to good characters only, or lawful characters only. Or worst of all, only lawful good characters. The class has to be flexible enough to allow for all the deities or you're completely breaking from the fiction. These deities are involved in the world and use proxies to do so. If one of them had divine warriors, all of them would. To stand up, the paladin class has to be able to accommodate all of those deities just as the cleric does or you've got a lot of mental gymnastics to do as to why Bahamut is the only deity that gets paladins.Again, that's a lot closer. It gives the paladin a unique feel, but it's still not unique enough from a warpriest-style cleric nor does it allow for a paladin of a chaos-themed deity.The Moradin cleric gets a smite ability at 3rd level, and Detect Evil again pushes it back to that LG stereotype again. If the paladin can only be lawful good and only be a melee fighter in heavy armor and only be this or that, you're restricting the class rather than opening it up. The more restrictive you get, the less justification there is to make it a class. If every paladin is a holy knight in shining armor with a magic horsie fighting for truth, justice, and the Toril way; then every single paladin is going to look pretty much exactly the same. If that's the case, then paladins would be better served being a specific build than a class or even a theme. Take this class with this theme and this deity.So how can a paladin class be flexible enough to take into account the various themes that could be applied to it and still be a paladin? To answer that, we first have to answer what a paladin is at its core, then try to stretch that definition as far as we can without breaking it. If it can't stretch far enough to encompass a wide variety of character concepts and builds, then the fact of the matter is the paladin isn't really a class.</blockquote>

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