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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7596992" data-attributes="member: 4937">Of course I do.&nbsp; You have in fact, really given me no additional information.&nbsp;&nbsp; You have not defined when the GM will decide if something is &quot;certain&quot; and there is or is not a meaningful chance of failure, and when as such the GM will simply fail or succeed according to the judgment of the DM by a fiat call.&nbsp;&nbsp; Knowing what rules set or system you are using doesn't really tell me anything, as pretty much every rules set more sophisticated than the coin flip game (&quot;World's Simplest RPG&quot;) has this &quot;in the judgment of the GM&quot; exception, that turns out to be more complex than the rules themselves.For any two GMs, I can not predict how they will handle propositions like the following in the above scenario:a) &quot;I probe ahead with a 10' pole checking for pressure plates.&quot;&nbsp; - One GM may decide that I automatically find the pressure plate, trigger it, but can suffer no meaningful consequence for failure because by definition of the fiction I'm not in the path of the spear.&nbsp; But another GM may decide that I can't engage in that proposition without some chance of failure.&nbsp; One GM may in fact decide that I've offered an invalid proposition (because metagaming?) and replace my proposition with a Search check with the stakes set by the GM (find trap or set it off).&nbsp; The game rules don't specify which GM is right.&nbsp; I have my own preferences, but I can't prove that my preferences are more correct.b) &quot;I belly crawl along the floor next to the wall where the spiked alcoves are located&quot; - This is much like the above, but with the addition of possibilities like the pressure plate does not take up the whole 5' square, and I can't know whether a GM will decide whether a belly crawling human takes up less space than a 5' square and thus can evade the pressure plate.&nbsp; The size of the pressure plates weren't described.&nbsp; Are they 1'x1' or 3'x3' or 5'x5'?&nbsp; The text doesn't specify, so different GMs if they were reading this module would come to different conclusions about the fictional positioning of the pressure plates.&nbsp; Different GMs will decide whether the spikes safely pass over my body or not based on their own perceptions about the spikes and their own interpretation as to whether my proposition is valid.c) &quot;I place my tower shield on the floor in the space between the alcoves, so that it forms a bridge across it.&nbsp; I then carefully crawl on the tower shield bridge, careful that the weight is on the shield, which is braced on either end by the stable part of the floor.&quot;&nbsp;&nbsp; Again, different DMs will decide whether this plan has a chance of failure or not, often based on nothing but their own whim or sense that I'm unfairly beating their exciting challenge.&nbsp; I've met DMs that would metagame against the PC's because they don't consider it fun if no one sets off the trap, setting high Dex checks on my attempt to crawl or otherwise giving me a chance of failure.&nbsp; Others would decide my tower shield wasn't a good enough or long enough bridge, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; I've got no idea whether this will work until I have some experience with the GM, because all of this involves the DM's judgment by your own description.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7596992, member: 4937"] Of course I do. You have in fact, really given me no additional information. You have not defined when the GM will decide if something is "certain" and there is or is not a meaningful chance of failure, and when as such the GM will simply fail or succeed according to the judgment of the DM by a fiat call. Knowing what rules set or system you are using doesn't really tell me anything, as pretty much every rules set more sophisticated than the coin flip game ("World's Simplest RPG") has this "in the judgment of the GM" exception, that turns out to be more complex than the rules themselves. For any two GMs, I can not predict how they will handle propositions like the following in the above scenario: a) "I probe ahead with a 10' pole checking for pressure plates." - One GM may decide that I automatically find the pressure plate, trigger it, but can suffer no meaningful consequence for failure because by definition of the fiction I'm not in the path of the spear. But another GM may decide that I can't engage in that proposition without some chance of failure. One GM may in fact decide that I've offered an invalid proposition (because metagaming?) and replace my proposition with a Search check with the stakes set by the GM (find trap or set it off). The game rules don't specify which GM is right. I have my own preferences, but I can't prove that my preferences are more correct. b) "I belly crawl along the floor next to the wall where the spiked alcoves are located" - This is much like the above, but with the addition of possibilities like the pressure plate does not take up the whole 5' square, and I can't know whether a GM will decide whether a belly crawling human takes up less space than a 5' square and thus can evade the pressure plate. The size of the pressure plates weren't described. Are they 1'x1' or 3'x3' or 5'x5'? The text doesn't specify, so different GMs if they were reading this module would come to different conclusions about the fictional positioning of the pressure plates. Different GMs will decide whether the spikes safely pass over my body or not based on their own perceptions about the spikes and their own interpretation as to whether my proposition is valid. c) "I place my tower shield on the floor in the space between the alcoves, so that it forms a bridge across it. I then carefully crawl on the tower shield bridge, careful that the weight is on the shield, which is braced on either end by the stable part of the floor." Again, different DMs will decide whether this plan has a chance of failure or not, often based on nothing but their own whim or sense that I'm unfairly beating their exciting challenge. I've met DMs that would metagame against the PC's because they don't consider it fun if no one sets off the trap, setting high Dex checks on my attempt to crawl or otherwise giving me a chance of failure. Others would decide my tower shield wasn't a good enough or long enough bridge, etc. I've got no idea whether this will work until I have some experience with the GM, because all of this involves the DM's judgment by your own description. [/QUOTE]

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