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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7597141" data-attributes="member: 6919838">I think you may be hitting what p sense as the Elf-skew.#2 is not at all &quot;no player choice&quot; - not harfly.In #2 the player choices are involved in two ways, one direct, one indirect.Indirect- the player choices made before - in chargen and after - directly setup the &quot;stats&quot; called for the resolution. Some of those may be absolutes (nor proficiency or no tools) but most they are modifiers to the odds. The Joe has +8&quot; is an indirect result of a choice made long ago. So might &quot;several NPCs dhow up to help&quot; as a response to prior good faith acts that might have been totally non-stat (#1 provides boost.)Directly, the choices made right then and there impact not only the outcome but the odds. Did you use dome crowbar to gain advantage? Did the guy who is best at it go first or not? Does someone have feather fall prepped irl known in case there is a fall? Is there a rope tied to you as safety? Does anyone use enhance ability or guidance or bardic dice? These and hundreds more can directly impact the odds - even moving it to an auto-success in some cases where skill plus these choices meet the criteria. They can also constrain and influence the outcome on a failure. This is imo vital in a game where &quot;some progress with setback&quot; is part of the basic core options for what a failure on a skill check is resolved as.Your &quot;just roll a die with no choice&quot; is **not** my #2.&nbsp; Its not close.That's in DnD terms like maybe getting forced to draw from deck of many things. Even saves reflect back to chargrn choices and options in the moment that can apply.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7597141, member: 6919838"] I think you may be hitting what p sense as the Elf-skew. #2 is not at all "no player choice" - not harfly. In #2 the player choices are involved in two ways, one direct, one indirect. Indirect- the player choices made before - in chargen and after - directly setup the "stats" called for the resolution. Some of those may be absolutes (nor proficiency or no tools) but most they are modifiers to the odds. The Joe has +8" is an indirect result of a choice made long ago. So might "several NPCs dhow up to help" as a response to prior good faith acts that might have been totally non-stat (#1 provides boost.) Directly, the choices made right then and there impact not only the outcome but the odds. Did you use dome crowbar to gain advantage? Did the guy who is best at it go first or not? Does someone have feather fall prepped irl known in case there is a fall? Is there a rope tied to you as safety? Does anyone use enhance ability or guidance or bardic dice? These and hundreds more can directly impact the odds - even moving it to an auto-success in some cases where skill plus these choices meet the criteria. They can also constrain and influence the outcome on a failure. This is imo vital in a game where "some progress with setback" is part of the basic core options for what a failure on a skill check is resolved as. Your "just roll a die with no choice" is **not** my #2. Its not close. That's in DnD terms like maybe getting forced to draw from deck of many things. Even saves reflect back to chargrn choices and options in the moment that can apply. [/QUOTE]

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