Reply to thread

Message

<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7597153" data-attributes="member: 4937">When I introduced my example of the two doors to open, did you object to the details of the example?When I introduced my example of the two different sorts of pages in a &quot;Choose your Own Adventure Book&quot;, did you object to the details of the example?Would you like to object now?These &quot;indirect challenges to the player&quot; are fundamentally what we are talking about as &quot;challenges to the character&quot;.&nbsp; First, I object that this is a challenge to the player because the player may have not had any agency in CharGen.&nbsp; The player could be using pregenerated characters, as for example in the case of the &quot;Lone Wolf&quot; choose your own adventure books, or the D&amp;D choose your own adventure books, or many RPG scenarios.&nbsp;&nbsp; The player could use a game system that randomly generates his character, giving him little or no control over what sort of character he is playing.&nbsp; Or for example, in my own campaign one player left and the incoming player took over playing his PC.&nbsp; Which player is being challenged by these &quot;indirect challenges&quot;?&nbsp; Isn't it obvious that it is the character that is being challenged either way you answer?Secondly, I object that even if this is a sort of challenge to the player, challenging the player in a Chargen minigame to foresee the sorts of problems that they face and will need answers too is not the same sort of challenge as challenging a player to solve a problem through choice of strategy, deduction, and so forth in the moment and as such we can meaningfully distinguish between them.&nbsp; I'm not particular stuck on terminology.&nbsp;&nbsp; We can call them &quot;A&quot; and &quot;B&quot; or &quot;1&quot; and &quot;2&quot; as well as &quot;challenge to the player&quot; and &quot;challenge to the character&quot; for all I care.&nbsp; That's just labels.&nbsp; The point is, the two things are different.False choice, and just another example (generally) of an indirect challenge.&nbsp; Having appropriate tools or equipment is just part of a character preparation and doesn't involve a meaningful choice.&nbsp; Why would you not use the crowbar?False choice.&nbsp; Why would you not choose to use the guy who is best?&nbsp; And if you didn't choose to use the guy that was best because the choice was forced on you, that's still not a choice.None of which has any bearing on the challenge of opening a door.&nbsp;&nbsp; Introducing the possibility of a larger puzzle unrelated to the door, or more importantly to the door puzzle examples as previously presented as examples of type, is simply evading the issue.&nbsp; And ultimately, even things like, &quot;Did you check for traps?&quot;, &quot;Did you listen at the door?&quot;, &quot;Did you have a listening cone with a screen across it to block ear crawlies?&quot;, become non-choices as well, as they players are likely to just assert, &quot;Standard procedure for doors.&quot; at some point.Generally, false choice as well if this doesn't really involve expending any crucial resources and retries are allowed, etc.&nbsp; This is just adding up more plusses anyway.Sure, but that's all still just challenge to character.&nbsp; You've just impacted the odds.&nbsp; You've modified the strength check or the open locks check that is testing the character, and really not in a meaningful way other than impacting the odds.&nbsp;&nbsp; If a choice is obvious and routine and requires no particular insight, it's not a choice.&nbsp; No cleverness is involved in using a crowbar to force open a door, and choosing to take a crowbar is no different than choosing to have a strong character or skill in opening locks.&nbsp; That's back to your &quot;indirect challenge&quot;.&nbsp; Wait a minute... let's not get this conversation side tracked on &quot;fail forward&quot; stuff.&nbsp; I see no need to add in more terms, especially to one that seems so tangential.I am not convinced.&nbsp; Tell me that you can alter the odds of passing a strength check to open a door by applying a guidance spell and a crowbar is still chargen choices of the type you describe as indirect.No, we have established in the thread that there are purely random things that are neither challenge to player or challenge to character.&nbsp; Being forced to draw from a deck of many things would seem to be a case in point of.&nbsp; But, I have provided simple examples of pure challenge to player and pure challenge to character.&nbsp; If you have a quibble with the examples, I'd prefer you start from that point just so we have a framework of discussion.Again, why assume chargen choices exist?&nbsp; And to the extent that they exist, they are obviously different than making choices in the moment.&nbsp; Again, for the proof of this, consider my previous examples of the types.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7597153, member: 4937"] When I introduced my example of the two doors to open, did you object to the details of the example? When I introduced my example of the two different sorts of pages in a "Choose your Own Adventure Book", did you object to the details of the example? Would you like to object now? These "indirect challenges to the player" are fundamentally what we are talking about as "challenges to the character". First, I object that this is a challenge to the player because the player may have not had any agency in CharGen. The player could be using pregenerated characters, as for example in the case of the "Lone Wolf" choose your own adventure books, or the D&D choose your own adventure books, or many RPG scenarios. The player could use a game system that randomly generates his character, giving him little or no control over what sort of character he is playing. Or for example, in my own campaign one player left and the incoming player took over playing his PC. Which player is being challenged by these "indirect challenges"? Isn't it obvious that it is the character that is being challenged either way you answer? Secondly, I object that even if this is a sort of challenge to the player, challenging the player in a Chargen minigame to foresee the sorts of problems that they face and will need answers too is not the same sort of challenge as challenging a player to solve a problem through choice of strategy, deduction, and so forth in the moment and as such we can meaningfully distinguish between them. I'm not particular stuck on terminology. We can call them "A" and "B" or "1" and "2" as well as "challenge to the player" and "challenge to the character" for all I care. That's just labels. The point is, the two things are different. False choice, and just another example (generally) of an indirect challenge. Having appropriate tools or equipment is just part of a character preparation and doesn't involve a meaningful choice. Why would you not use the crowbar? False choice. Why would you not choose to use the guy who is best? And if you didn't choose to use the guy that was best because the choice was forced on you, that's still not a choice. None of which has any bearing on the challenge of opening a door. Introducing the possibility of a larger puzzle unrelated to the door, or more importantly to the door puzzle examples as previously presented as examples of type, is simply evading the issue. And ultimately, even things like, "Did you check for traps?", "Did you listen at the door?", "Did you have a listening cone with a screen across it to block ear crawlies?", become non-choices as well, as they players are likely to just assert, "Standard procedure for doors." at some point. Generally, false choice as well if this doesn't really involve expending any crucial resources and retries are allowed, etc. This is just adding up more plusses anyway. Sure, but that's all still just challenge to character. You've just impacted the odds. You've modified the strength check or the open locks check that is testing the character, and really not in a meaningful way other than impacting the odds. If a choice is obvious and routine and requires no particular insight, it's not a choice. No cleverness is involved in using a crowbar to force open a door, and choosing to take a crowbar is no different than choosing to have a strong character or skill in opening locks. That's back to your "indirect challenge". Wait a minute... let's not get this conversation side tracked on "fail forward" stuff. I see no need to add in more terms, especially to one that seems so tangential. I am not convinced. Tell me that you can alter the odds of passing a strength check to open a door by applying a guidance spell and a crowbar is still chargen choices of the type you describe as indirect. No, we have established in the thread that there are purely random things that are neither challenge to player or challenge to character. Being forced to draw from a deck of many things would seem to be a case in point of. But, I have provided simple examples of pure challenge to player and pure challenge to character. If you have a quibble with the examples, I'd prefer you start from that point just so we have a framework of discussion. Again, why assume chargen choices exist? And to the extent that they exist, they are obviously different than making choices in the moment. Again, for the proof of this, consider my previous examples of the types. [/QUOTE]

Verification