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<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 7597239" data-attributes="member: 97077">If you're referring to the exchange between you and 5ekyu, I'm afraid that it may lack sufficient context for me to pick up on it as that poster has me blocked, so I skipped the post. I went back to read it, but unfortunately don't see where you're coming from. In any case I would say if the outcome of the situation is unknown and the player can affect the outcome through his or her choices, then we have a ourselves a challenge for that player. If the player can't affect anything by his or her choices or the outcome is known then we don't have a challenge. It's at best random number generation or narration.I will not take the position that the character is challenged (except in a fictional sense) or that both player and character are challenged. That is a canard in my view, a way for some people to say they don't like riddles or puzzles or thinking through complex situations and prefer to outsource it to a random number generator. Or in some cases it's made by DMs who may be too agreeable or anti-authoritarian to feel comfortable being the judge of the efficacy of a player's ideas. I get it. I used to make this same &quot;challenge the character, not the player&quot; argument back when I played D&amp;D 4e chiefly, I believe, because I was enamored with skill challenges. Clearly I did not think it through. But I've since learned.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="iserith, post: 7597239, member: 97077"] If you're referring to the exchange between you and 5ekyu, I'm afraid that it may lack sufficient context for me to pick up on it as that poster has me blocked, so I skipped the post. I went back to read it, but unfortunately don't see where you're coming from. In any case I would say if the outcome of the situation is unknown and the player can affect the outcome through his or her choices, then we have a ourselves a challenge for that player. If the player can't affect anything by his or her choices or the outcome is known then we don't have a challenge. It's at best random number generation or narration. I will not take the position that the character is challenged (except in a fictional sense) or that both player and character are challenged. That is a canard in my view, a way for some people to say they don't like riddles or puzzles or thinking through complex situations and prefer to outsource it to a random number generator. Or in some cases it's made by DMs who may be too agreeable or anti-authoritarian to feel comfortable being the judge of the efficacy of a player's ideas. I get it. I used to make this same "challenge the character, not the player" argument back when I played D&D 4e chiefly, I believe, because I was enamored with skill challenges. Clearly I did not think it through. But I've since learned. [/QUOTE]

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