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Message: <blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7597285" data-attributes="member: 6919838">I dont remember the two doors example. I do remember your adventure book example snd did not like parts of it, did not see them as overly applicable to my position either way.I am not going into cases from the adventure book of roll die vs stat with no choices allowed or involved, so that's why I brought that point up here. The closest to that in typical plaupy are saves, but they have options too. For your player not involved in chargen, even in the pick up con games with pre-gens I have encountered, there were choices of pre-gens. Someone can choose from sets the types of characterscthry want. It's also usually very true for campaigns. If you want to limit the dupiscusdion to the subset where players have zero input in character capabilities, that's fine, have a ball, but I prefer to discuss the vast majority of play in campaigns or one-offs where they do. False choices? Well, if that's how you see them, that's cool. They are choices I see made in games frequently. Why not use crowbar, why not use the best guy, why not use spells, etc... depends 9n the complexities involved. I almost added a whole lot more such as noise, alerting others, etc to another door example but realized it was gonna be a long post that only scratched the surface of possibilities every seasonedvplayr knows and likely has seen. If you dont see the possibility of reason to choose or not choose any of these, have not seen them in play, we have amazingly different experiences.But, fact remains these choices impact the odds and so they are counted. So, the "choices" are not removed in a challenge that requires a character stat references, particularly if those can reach auto-success in combo with the stats.You want to throw out the basic 5e ability check resolution mechanics of setback with progress, okay, but I will keep it in my play. 5e even has explicit call outs to using the margin of failure for different skill check results. So these "choices" that alter the odds or raise minimums play significant role, or rather might play significant roles, so I will keep including them. Why assume chargen choices exist? Because the vast majority of rpg play evidenced and the vast majority of rpg systems make that assumption as well. It's kind of a big deal. You know that right? You have seen that before right?But for this..."Secondly, I object that even if this is a sort of challenge to the player, challenging the player in a Chargen minigame to foresee the sorts of problems that they face and will need answers too is not the same sort of challenge as challenging a player to solve a problem through choice of strategy, deduction, and so forth in the moment and as such we can meaningfully distinguish between them. "In my experience, in my play, in many systems it's more explicitly expressed this way but DnD doesnt ignore it - these chargen choices are less a forsee or guess by the player about what may come but a choice by the player of what kinds of things they want to be doing. That player choosing a fighter over a mage is doing do cuz that's what he wants to be playing - not a guess that the fighter will be needed more than the mage or less. That guy choosing criminal over craftsman is doing so cuz those are activities he hopes to pursue - using those traits and features.These choices show the players intent and planned course, much more often than it shows his guesses of what is coming. It's this way because in many games and in many rpg campaign expectations characters have choices as to influence some of the types of challenges they encounter. But I do agree, the chargen, pre-scene and in-scene choices are different which is why I listed them as direct and indirect. If you prefer other names, that's fine. But direct and indirect seem good enough to me.</blockquote>

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