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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7597685" data-attributes="member: 22779">Umm, in my example, the player never actually said a word.&nbsp; So, no goal and approach needed.&nbsp; It was, &quot;You see the traps ahead of you and avoid them.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;You are running, make a Dex save&quot;.&nbsp; The player was barely involved at all.&nbsp; Certainly no approach was even implied.&nbsp; And, well, &quot;Perception 45&quot; would have been perfectly fine in the context. I mean, you're looking down a hall and rolling a perception check, what exactly do you think the player is doing?&nbsp; If I, as the player, need to spell it out in more detail than that, I'm in the wrong game.Heck, I'm going a step further.&nbsp; But, sure, it might have started with that.&nbsp; You see a hallway.&nbsp; &quot;Perception 45&quot;&nbsp; Ok, you see the trap in the hallway.&nbsp; You can avoid it if you wish or you could disarm it.&nbsp; &quot;Naw, we'll go around, ain't got time to fiddle with it&quot;.&nbsp; Done.Pretty much pure character challenge, since the player didn't actually have to really do anything - the perception check in my example was passive.&nbsp; But, even if you want to argue rolling the perception check at this point in time is a player challenge, well, that's splitting hairs too finely for me.AFAIC, there's a nice venn diagram here.&nbsp; One sliver on the left is Pure Player Challenge.&nbsp; One sliver on the right is Pure Character Challenge.&nbsp; And the two circles overlap about 90% and is labeled &quot;mix of the two&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7597685, member: 22779"] Umm, in my example, the player never actually said a word. So, no goal and approach needed. It was, "You see the traps ahead of you and avoid them." "You are running, make a Dex save". The player was barely involved at all. Certainly no approach was even implied. And, well, "Perception 45" would have been perfectly fine in the context. I mean, you're looking down a hall and rolling a perception check, what exactly do you think the player is doing? If I, as the player, need to spell it out in more detail than that, I'm in the wrong game. Heck, I'm going a step further. But, sure, it might have started with that. You see a hallway. "Perception 45" Ok, you see the trap in the hallway. You can avoid it if you wish or you could disarm it. "Naw, we'll go around, ain't got time to fiddle with it". Done. Pretty much pure character challenge, since the player didn't actually have to really do anything - the perception check in my example was passive. But, even if you want to argue rolling the perception check at this point in time is a player challenge, well, that's splitting hairs too finely for me. AFAIC, there's a nice venn diagram here. One sliver on the left is Pure Player Challenge. One sliver on the right is Pure Character Challenge. And the two circles overlap about 90% and is labeled "mix of the two". [/QUOTE]

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