Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What does it mean to "Challenge the Character"?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="iserith" data-source="post: 7598224" data-attributes="member: 97077"><p>I think the folks talking about "challenging the character" are mostly just confusing the concepts of "challenge" and "difficulty."</p><p></p><p>"Challenge" is a situation in which the player has to make decisions to affect an unknown outcome. "Difficulty" is how likely the undesirable outcome of that situation is to come to pass, often requiring tougher decisions on the part of the player to overcome the challenge. The better those decisions in context, the more difficulty is <em>mitigated</em> and the better the odds of a favorable outcome. The worse those decisions in context, the more difficulty is <em>aggravated</em> and the better the odds of an unfavorable outcome. The character represents, among other things not relevant to this topic, a suite of options the player may be able to employ to help overcome the challenge or, as in D&D 5e and ability checks, backup for when the proposed action has an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure.</p><p></p><p>In the case of your above example, the player is being challenged in both situations since the player has to make some decisions to affect an unknown outcome. With the "Shields!" option, the player is presumably choosing this action over other action options in the moment ("Fire Torpedos!" or "Fire Phasers!" perhaps) for reasons known to the player. Otherwise there is no choice here and thus no challenge to anyone, just random number generation if that. So, presuming there is a meaningful choice, the player is being challenged here. It's just that in the second "Shields!" option, it looks like the player just has less input. If there is no choice, again, there is no challenge - not to the player, and of course not to the character (which is just a tool for the player).</p><p></p><p>When some of you are talking about setting up situations that are tougher on the character or that are in line with the character's abilities, you're really just talking about making the tool that is the character less effective or more effective for the player to use to overcome the challenge. If you present a combat challenge with a fire-immune fire elemental to a wizard who has taken all fire spells, for example, you are not challenging the character - you are challenging the player and have made the tool by which the player can overcome the challenge less effective, thereby increasing the difficulty. If conversely you present a combat challenge with a bunch of fire-vulnerable mummies to that same wizard, you've made the tool by which the player can overcome the challenge more effective, thereby decreasing the difficulty. In either case, it is the player who is being challenged since it is the players' decisions that impact the outcome of the challenge.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="iserith, post: 7598224, member: 97077"] I think the folks talking about "challenging the character" are mostly just confusing the concepts of "challenge" and "difficulty." "Challenge" is a situation in which the player has to make decisions to affect an unknown outcome. "Difficulty" is how likely the undesirable outcome of that situation is to come to pass, often requiring tougher decisions on the part of the player to overcome the challenge. The better those decisions in context, the more difficulty is [I]mitigated[/I] and the better the odds of a favorable outcome. The worse those decisions in context, the more difficulty is [I]aggravated[/I] and the better the odds of an unfavorable outcome. The character represents, among other things not relevant to this topic, a suite of options the player may be able to employ to help overcome the challenge or, as in D&D 5e and ability checks, backup for when the proposed action has an uncertain outcome and a meaningful consequence for failure. In the case of your above example, the player is being challenged in both situations since the player has to make some decisions to affect an unknown outcome. With the "Shields!" option, the player is presumably choosing this action over other action options in the moment ("Fire Torpedos!" or "Fire Phasers!" perhaps) for reasons known to the player. Otherwise there is no choice here and thus no challenge to anyone, just random number generation if that. So, presuming there is a meaningful choice, the player is being challenged here. It's just that in the second "Shields!" option, it looks like the player just has less input. If there is no choice, again, there is no challenge - not to the player, and of course not to the character (which is just a tool for the player). When some of you are talking about setting up situations that are tougher on the character or that are in line with the character's abilities, you're really just talking about making the tool that is the character less effective or more effective for the player to use to overcome the challenge. If you present a combat challenge with a fire-immune fire elemental to a wizard who has taken all fire spells, for example, you are not challenging the character - you are challenging the player and have made the tool by which the player can overcome the challenge less effective, thereby increasing the difficulty. If conversely you present a combat challenge with a bunch of fire-vulnerable mummies to that same wizard, you've made the tool by which the player can overcome the challenge more effective, thereby decreasing the difficulty. In either case, it is the player who is being challenged since it is the players' decisions that impact the outcome of the challenge. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What does it mean to "Challenge the Character"?
Top