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What does it mean to "Challenge the Character"?
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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7599006" data-attributes="member: 6919838"><p>"If a player dump stats an attribute and in your opinion doesn't suffer enough of a penalty for it, then it suggests that attribute doesn't actually have enough impact on play and possibly should be removed from the game entirely. If it really was the case that there was no mechanical penalty for low INT, why do characters and the rules system have INT at all? That sounds like a problem with the system and not with the players."</p><p></p><p>I agree. However, the impact on play of a stat is dependent on both the types of challenges presented to the charscter **and** the resolution methods seen to be needed in play.</p><p></p><p>If a GM shows routinely that social engagements are handled more on the player-side by puzzle-lock type play, where really perhaps insight and investigation play s bigger role (gathering clues to be used to manipulate the other) and that if the argument presented in player gets to "auto-success" etc (no Cha needed) then that is the GM choosing to rule out botched delivery by character as long as the player doesnt themselves do so. The GM has then shown Cha as less useful. </p><p></p><p>Thats why I (and others perhaps) will tend to always refer back to stats, perhaps still auto-success, but used.</p><p></p><p>Some stats have hard coded uses, guaranteed uncertainties etc do the reference to the stat is maintained in many encounters by the mechanics. Others are far more succeptable to GM bypassing enough to see the stat devslued.</p><p></p><p>I would have zero issues if a GM said "in this game, most social types of challenges are gonna be more like mysteries to solve - investigation and insight driven if at all stats and so CHA is removed". Tell the folks that right up front. Rework classes to use other non-cha stats. </p><p></p><p>But leaving Cha in and then showing in play it's more effective to overcome those challenges by the other means... you undercut the chargen choices and expectations. "I figured my sorc would be good at social stuff, but the ones finding clues do better at it than I. </p><p>"</p><p></p><p>As for the int 18 vs Int 8 and why play character whatever...</p><p></p><p>Facing a 15' jump a str 18 doesnt have to roll but a set 12 or str 8 would. So both require reference to character stat, but one auto-succeeds. Is that raising an issue of why play character too? </p><p></p><p>Fir me, the ingots is an easy issue since str 8 can lift them and even toddlers learn there are things they can carry and things they cannot. The challenge doesnt come with one solution but with many and they have different ways they reference stats. It's not that a Str 18 check was applied to the scene, but to moving the full cart. </p><p></p><p>But then again, to me a challenge to Int would not be a "player puzzle but something that the character would need to do, like deciphering mystic runes or analysis of a compound etc. So, the idea that lifting ingots somehow gets worked into a int test for character is very skewed from my experience at gaming.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7599006, member: 6919838"] "If a player dump stats an attribute and in your opinion doesn't suffer enough of a penalty for it, then it suggests that attribute doesn't actually have enough impact on play and possibly should be removed from the game entirely. If it really was the case that there was no mechanical penalty for low INT, why do characters and the rules system have INT at all? That sounds like a problem with the system and not with the players." I agree. However, the impact on play of a stat is dependent on both the types of challenges presented to the charscter **and** the resolution methods seen to be needed in play. If a GM shows routinely that social engagements are handled more on the player-side by puzzle-lock type play, where really perhaps insight and investigation play s bigger role (gathering clues to be used to manipulate the other) and that if the argument presented in player gets to "auto-success" etc (no Cha needed) then that is the GM choosing to rule out botched delivery by character as long as the player doesnt themselves do so. The GM has then shown Cha as less useful. Thats why I (and others perhaps) will tend to always refer back to stats, perhaps still auto-success, but used. Some stats have hard coded uses, guaranteed uncertainties etc do the reference to the stat is maintained in many encounters by the mechanics. Others are far more succeptable to GM bypassing enough to see the stat devslued. I would have zero issues if a GM said "in this game, most social types of challenges are gonna be more like mysteries to solve - investigation and insight driven if at all stats and so CHA is removed". Tell the folks that right up front. Rework classes to use other non-cha stats. But leaving Cha in and then showing in play it's more effective to overcome those challenges by the other means... you undercut the chargen choices and expectations. "I figured my sorc would be good at social stuff, but the ones finding clues do better at it than I. " As for the int 18 vs Int 8 and why play character whatever... Facing a 15' jump a str 18 doesnt have to roll but a set 12 or str 8 would. So both require reference to character stat, but one auto-succeeds. Is that raising an issue of why play character too? Fir me, the ingots is an easy issue since str 8 can lift them and even toddlers learn there are things they can carry and things they cannot. The challenge doesnt come with one solution but with many and they have different ways they reference stats. It's not that a Str 18 check was applied to the scene, but to moving the full cart. But then again, to me a challenge to Int would not be a "player puzzle but something that the character would need to do, like deciphering mystic runes or analysis of a compound etc. So, the idea that lifting ingots somehow gets worked into a int test for character is very skewed from my experience at gaming. [/QUOTE]
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What does it mean to "Challenge the Character"?
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