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<blockquote data-quote="Guest 6801328" data-source="post: 7599057">Sure! Happy to. And, yes, I get it, physical challenges somehow seem different than social/intellectual challenges.Sure, just like you may not have the key and have no other choice but to break it down (if there's no keyhole, either) or pick the lock (if it can't be broken down), sometimes you won't have the 'key' to a social encounter and might not be able to come up with any other plan than good old-fashioned fast-talking. In which case the DM may very well ask for a roll (or not, if the NPC is looking for an excuse to cooperate.)Maybe one of the misunderstandings here is that that you (and others) are assuming there is ALWAYS an alternative plan with guaranteed success?&nbsp; Not at all.&nbsp; All we are saying is that the DM should listen to what the players propose.By the way, you giving advantage, or a reduced DC, is logically no different than iserith and I giving automatic success: you are also modifying the difficulty based on the approach, you just are more reluctant to reduce it all the way to zero.&nbsp; (And I also sometimes give advantage instead of making it an automatic success.)Anyway, on to examples.&nbsp; Yes, you cover a lot of the bases with the categories of &quot;bribery&quot; and &quot;blackmail/threats&quot;:&nbsp;- Offer gold. Maybe a lot of gold.&nbsp;- Offer something else you know the NPC really wants (information, captives, magic items, perform a task, etc.)&nbsp;- Threaten to expose 'dirt' on the NPC&nbsp;- Threaten to kill the NPCs family members. (Does the DM ask for an Intimidation check? Kill a hostage instead.&nbsp; Another Intimidation check? Kill another hostage. Etc.)&nbsp;- Instead of offering a trade, just do something to get in the NPC's good favor, and then ask.&nbsp; &quot;Here, I rescued your daughter. No, no, no...no payment necessary.&nbsp; Although, now that you mention it...&quot;And, again, none of those are necessarily going to reduce the difficulty, or make it zero. But they might. It's up to the DM, depending on the circumstances.(If I understand correctly what Hussar is saying, in each one of those cases the player would still have to make the same Charisma check, with the same DC, that he would if he had done none of those things and just said, &quot;I'll roll Persuade.&quot;)Now, the players, for reasons of personal values, or because they are roleplaying characters with personal values, may balk at some of these options.&nbsp; Again, there won't always be an alternative solution available.&nbsp; Those player might just have to make a Charisma roll.&nbsp; (Or give up, not wanting to face the consequences of a failed dice roll.)&nbsp;Yeah, there seems to be an ongoing reluctance/inability/unwillingness to distinguish between &quot;proposing something sensible&quot; and &quot;hustling the DM.&quot;&nbsp; Yeah, sure.&nbsp; In fact, all the better. &quot;Try a Charisma roll you will likely fail, with the consequence that you get thrown out, or use Blackmail which will likely succeed, in which case even with success you'll have gained an enemy, not to mention a stain on your soul.&quot;&nbsp; That's awesome.&nbsp; I love trade-offs.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Guest 6801328, post: 7599057"] Sure! Happy to. And, yes, I get it, physical challenges somehow seem different than social/intellectual challenges. Sure, just like you may not have the key and have no other choice but to break it down (if there's no keyhole, either) or pick the lock (if it can't be broken down), sometimes you won't have the 'key' to a social encounter and might not be able to come up with any other plan than good old-fashioned fast-talking. In which case the DM may very well ask for a roll (or not, if the NPC is looking for an excuse to cooperate.) Maybe one of the misunderstandings here is that that you (and others) are assuming there is ALWAYS an alternative plan with guaranteed success? Not at all. All we are saying is that the DM should listen to what the players propose. By the way, you giving advantage, or a reduced DC, is logically no different than iserith and I giving automatic success: you are also modifying the difficulty based on the approach, you just are more reluctant to reduce it all the way to zero. (And I also sometimes give advantage instead of making it an automatic success.) Anyway, on to examples. Yes, you cover a lot of the bases with the categories of "bribery" and "blackmail/threats": - Offer gold. Maybe a lot of gold. - Offer something else you know the NPC really wants (information, captives, magic items, perform a task, etc.) - Threaten to expose 'dirt' on the NPC - Threaten to kill the NPCs family members. (Does the DM ask for an Intimidation check? Kill a hostage instead. Another Intimidation check? Kill another hostage. Etc.) - Instead of offering a trade, just do something to get in the NPC's good favor, and then ask. "Here, I rescued your daughter. No, no, no...no payment necessary. Although, now that you mention it..." And, again, none of those are [I]necessarily[/I] going to reduce the difficulty, or make it zero. But they might. It's up to the DM, depending on the circumstances. (If I understand correctly what Hussar is saying, in each one of those cases the player would still have to make the same Charisma check, with the same DC, that he would if he had done none of those things and just said, "I'll roll Persuade.") Now, the players, for reasons of personal values, or because they are roleplaying characters with personal values, may balk at some of these options. Again, there won't always be an alternative solution available. Those player might just have to make a Charisma roll. (Or give up, not wanting to face the consequences of a failed dice roll.) Yeah, there seems to be an ongoing reluctance/inability/unwillingness to distinguish between "proposing something sensible" and "hustling the DM." [I][/I] Yeah, sure. In fact, all the better. "Try a Charisma roll you will likely fail, with the consequence that you get thrown out, or use Blackmail which will likely succeed, in which case even with success you'll have gained an enemy, not to mention a stain on your soul." That's awesome. I love trade-offs. [/QUOTE]

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