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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7600927" data-attributes="member: 4937">Well, it's a issue, I'm not sure it is the issue.&nbsp; A lot of the issues that I've been talking about have nothing to do with anyone playing in bad faith.Well, no, that's not quite what I said.&nbsp; What I'm talking about is player trying to manipulate the propostion-&gt;fortune-&gt;resolution cycle in order to move a game that is played normally Fortune in the Middle, to one which is moved to Fortune at the End.&nbsp;&nbsp; The advantage here is that the player has now gotten the DM to agree to the player's stakes, which in a typical Fortune in the Middle game are not explicit.&nbsp;&nbsp; Whether the player is trying to do this referring to the rules or not, the point is that the player is effectively negotiating for a stake in a game that has no mechanisms for setting stakes.&nbsp; So sure, maybe he does at some point roll a skill check or cast a spell or do something in the rules using a resource on his character sheet, but he only agrees to do it after the DM has agreed that a certain outcome will happen if he does.&nbsp; That's a bit different, and I don't like being coopted in to your argument.I'm really not following where you are going this except that you think you've found by twisting around something I've said some sort of &quot;gotcha&quot; in some argument I'm not a part of.&nbsp; Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about now.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7600927, member: 4937"] Well, it's a issue, I'm not sure it is the issue. A lot of the issues that I've been talking about have nothing to do with anyone playing in bad faith. Well, no, that's not quite what I said. What I'm talking about is player trying to manipulate the propostion->fortune->resolution cycle in order to move a game that is played normally Fortune in the Middle, to one which is moved to Fortune at the End. The advantage here is that the player has now gotten the DM to agree to the player's stakes, which in a typical Fortune in the Middle game are not explicit. Whether the player is trying to do this referring to the rules or not, the point is that the player is effectively negotiating for a stake in a game that has no mechanisms for setting stakes. So sure, maybe he does at some point roll a skill check or cast a spell or do something in the rules using a resource on his character sheet, but he only agrees to do it after the DM has agreed that a certain outcome will happen if he does. That's a bit different, and I don't like being coopted in to your argument. I'm really not following where you are going this except that you think you've found by twisting around something I've said some sort of "gotcha" in some argument I'm not a part of. Honestly, I don't know what you are talking about now. [/QUOTE]

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