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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7301067" data-attributes="member: 4937">[MENTION=6777696]redrick[/MENTION]: A very good post and there is a lot to dig into in that, but I'm going to jump at the most complex element you brought up and get my word in before too many opinions jump on it.I about half agree with that statement.  While it may remind you of that, if that was the purpose then there would be a much easier direction to go in - simply label one or more of the human societies as evil and worthy of indiscriminate killing.   That you have explicitly non-human things in the game means that well, they don't necessarily have any humanity to dehumanize them out of.What I object to is not absolutes.  I'm absolutely ok with a sentient creature being absolutely evil and worthy of destruction.  What I object to with regards to 'murderhoboism' is whether or not the creature is worthy of destruction tends to not even be a considered issue in the game, at least by the PC's.  Things are killed not because they are evil, but because they have XP, and the fact that they've been assigned a black hat is just cover for behavior which would in any other context just be murder.   Typically, if this isn't considered by either the GM or the players, the result is the societies that differ from each other only in the hats that they wear.   Something is evil only because it was labeled as such, and worse something is good only because it was lablelled as such.However, I also object to the opposite.  If something in the game is labeled a 'demon', I don't want to hear about how nuanced the portrayal is and how humanized this thing is.   If something is a literal incarnation of evil, don't humanize it.  Or if you want something that is only a little bit evil, don't borrow terms like 'demon' and confuse the issue.What I admire the most is a spectrum, where not only does gray exist, but so also does black and white.   Overly simplistic palettes of either just black and white, or just grey (or sometimes just black) don't impress me and to be honest make me rather uncomfortable.  So for example, if you look at what I'm trying to attain, you might have something like:Dwarves & Elves:  On the whole, these tend to be better people than humans.  They tend to be rather serious about honor and morality and they tend to have few vices.  But they are still rather far from perfect, and individuals can become just as corrupt and even murderous as any human.Humans: Realistic for what I see of humanity, most people struggle with even basic morality, charity, truthfulness, energy, and stoutheartedness.  They are often morose, dishonest, incapable of telling truth from falsehood or good from evil, slothful, despairing, and easily depressed.  They are moody and testy and frequently say things that they don't really mean.  They almost all have at least some sort of vice they are trying to overcome.  But they are also capable of soaring and inspiring deeds and the blackest and foulest of works.  Indeed, among the best of them, their own acquaintance with evil lends them a compassion and understanding even an elf and dwarf would find astounding.Goblins: On the whole, these tend to be worse than humans.  They tend to act very much like they don't have a conscious, and the culture most are raised in only makes the problem worse.  But just because they are a rather foul bunch doesn't mean that every single one is a murderer, or that they aren't individuals with a certain degree of honor and even nobility.  It is conceivable, if rare, that a goblin could be good and there are rumors that in ages past, perhaps most of them were.Gnolls: Are basically incapable of being good.  They probably lack free will in this regard, and are the expressions or puppets of the will of an evil deity.  So far as it is known, they are incapable of rebelling against their evil master.  However, they are not fully depraved or wholly alien.  While not really capable of good will, they aren't at all times compulsively destructive and you can appeal to their instincts for survival or more humans sorts of desires for food, drink, music, and so forth.  They can be honestly merry, happy, or even in their own way grateful.  But their instincts go deeper than any reason, and fundamentally they are a sort of lesser fiend.Demons: Fully depraved and completely alien, they are not only incapable of being good but incapable of not being evil.  They cannot experience pleasure or any other good thing, and are motivated solely by the desire to spread their pain and misery to everyone else.  They consider evil entirely an end unto itself, and not a means to anything but more evil.  In this view, which I admit is just my homebrew take on things, killing goblins without cause is murder, because goblins aren't wholly depraved and individuals might actually be innocent of wrong doing.  It still happens a lot because most goblins are unrepentant bandits that loot and pillage for fun, but to that extent you treat them as bandits or raiders just as you would human bandits or raiders.   To the extent that many dwarves, elves, or humans argue that goblins should be killed on sight, it is not because 'their goblins' but because they believe that they have fallen or been corrupted to the same class of beings as gnolls - lesser servitors of evil lacking in free will.   Absolute proof that a goblin had free will and was capable of good would give most of these people pause, regardless of what they were raised to believe.  But on the other hand, under the above, killing a gnoll is not murderous.  The entire species really are semi-autonomous agents of evil made in a certain sense in mockery and imitation of real people like elves, humans, and yes, goblins.  And the idea of humanizing a demon is only foolishness and evil itself, as only the ignorant would imagine that any apparently human behavior or sentiment on the part of it is anything but deception.  It isn't merely evil, it literally is Evil.  From that range, I can play out any sort of story, from stories about finding what you call 'humanity' where you don't expect it, to facing off against implacable horrors wholly lacking in mercy.</blockquote>

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