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What does "murderhobo" mean to you?
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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 7302022"><p>I don't let them be murderhobos, no. It's difficult to go into depth without a large essay on Drow, suffice to say there are rules. Walking down the street killing people? That gets you in trouble in the Underdark just like it gets you in trouble above. With some exceptions everyone belongs to someone else, be they a slave, a soldier, a priest or someone importants boy-toy; players included. Beyond that, the Underdark is a high-magic microcosm. It is difficult to go any meaningful distance without running into a handful of people who could likewise kill you on a whim, and more often than not, <em>those</em> people could get away with it. Part of that comes with the connection of Houses and Families and so on. Killing a slave of a powerful House may get you killed, you might go to sleep one night and wake up the next session with the DM telling you to roll up a new character, or telling the whole party to roll up new characters.</p><p></p><p>As people have mentioned before, part of the reason murderhoboing happens is a lack of connection. In a Drow campaign connection is HUGE. You cannot survive in the Underdark without connections, either to many people or to powerful people, ideally both. </p><p></p><p>It's not that they can't be evil. But there are plenty of ways to be evil.</p><p></p><p>It's not that they can't be murderers. You can get away with murder if you're clever. (in fact, that's likely to get you hired to do more murder)</p><p></p><p>What players can't do is be hobos who flail around pointing their weapons at everyone who doesn't give them what they want. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Killing for XP is part of the game. I do my best to balance it out by rewarding XP for non-violent solutions but that's the trouble: some people want violent solutions to everything.</p><p>Barkeep won't give them a room? Kill the barkeep.</p><p>You went to the wrong room? Kill the guy there and take his room.</p><p>Violence for everything! Violence for the little things. Violence for the big things. Violence for the guards who don't let you enter the palace. Violence for the chickens wandering in the street. Violence for the drunkard who thinks they're a talented bard.</p><p>Even when these things don't award XP, murderhobos kill them because they can (hence the murder part) and because they have no investment (hence the hobo part).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure. Those are easy to run, and easier to still to keep out of murderhoboing.</p><p>Mercenaries rely on a reputation for getting the job done. They get paid better and get better jobs the faster, cleaner and generally more efficient they are. Sure, they may piss off X town or Y city, but those cities still do business with the people who hire mercenaries (who are often wealthy nobles, traders and the like who rely on Town X or City Y to keep doing their business, even if they hire the party to take out a rival). </p><p></p><p>Holy crusaders are similar. They're first and foremost connected to some kind of Holy Order. This Holy Order gives them well, orders. Kill those guys. Capture that place. Burn down this building. etc... Acting outside the orders, against the orders or killing without sanction gets them into trouble, from being revoked to possibly having the Order turn on you. The Order is more powerful than the players, has ways of keeping track of the players and their actions.</p><p></p><p>And generally speaking in both cases: the rewards from sticking to the contract or following orders results in better XP and better loot as well as other benefits (such as increased rank and its privileges).</p><p></p><p></p><p>In my experience, murderhobos are almost all, if not are chaotic evil (or call themselves chaotic neutral). </p><p>I think when you start saying things like "operate largely under a murderhobo ethic" what you're really saying is that they're <em>not really </em>murderhobos, but with a little push they could be.</p><p>And really, ain't that true of real life even? Most <em>people</em> do what they need to do to survive and with a little push, they might just do a lot worse. The fact that the line between "wandering minstrel" or "nomadic adventurer" is fine does not mean the line doesn't exist. It's an important element of more robust games and less dungeon-crawley games. Walking that line, straying from the line one way or the other is what makes for good role play. In my experience, players who disregard the line entirely do so purposefully and by extension, their characters do so purposefully. They are not simply adventuers who have fallen on hard times and are trying to climb back up. They're <em>players</em> who immediately look for the bottom of the barrell and then revel in it. </p><p></p><p></p><p>And that's part of the problem. It shouldn't be a "houserule" that commoners have neither XP nor loot.</p><p></p><p></p><p>That has been, rather consistently, the type of player and character that has embodied the term. Characters who are not that type will almost immediately bite on any sort of extension of social standing, roots-establishment and so on. They have goals beyond "kill everyone I see". </p><p></p><p></p><p>Personally, I'd call the Thorin and his dwarves refugees. They're not people who <em>don't want a home</em> they're people who want <strong>their home</strong> which was taken from them. They don't really initiate a lot of the killing either, though they are often attacked and then kill their attackers. I mean the whole quest was "lets get our home <em>back</em>" As for the Fellowship, they spend a great deal of time <em>avoiding</em> confrontation, especially since some of their enemies (the Nazgul) were like, super-way-more-powerful. Are they homeless? Not really. Almost every member of the Fellowship could have up and returned home if they wanted and they certainly weren't the type to start swinging their swords around when shopkeepers or guards didn't give them what they wanted immediately. The whole Fellowship often dodged off course because they wanted to stay someplace friendly. </p><p></p><p>If your definition of a "murderhobo" is "anyone who has ever left home" I don't think your definition is helpful.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 7302022"] I don't let them be murderhobos, no. It's difficult to go into depth without a large essay on Drow, suffice to say there are rules. Walking down the street killing people? That gets you in trouble in the Underdark just like it gets you in trouble above. With some exceptions everyone belongs to someone else, be they a slave, a soldier, a priest or someone importants boy-toy; players included. Beyond that, the Underdark is a high-magic microcosm. It is difficult to go any meaningful distance without running into a handful of people who could likewise kill you on a whim, and more often than not, [I]those[/I] people could get away with it. Part of that comes with the connection of Houses and Families and so on. Killing a slave of a powerful House may get you killed, you might go to sleep one night and wake up the next session with the DM telling you to roll up a new character, or telling the whole party to roll up new characters. As people have mentioned before, part of the reason murderhoboing happens is a lack of connection. In a Drow campaign connection is HUGE. You cannot survive in the Underdark without connections, either to many people or to powerful people, ideally both. It's not that they can't be evil. But there are plenty of ways to be evil. It's not that they can't be murderers. You can get away with murder if you're clever. (in fact, that's likely to get you hired to do more murder) What players can't do is be hobos who flail around pointing their weapons at everyone who doesn't give them what they want. Killing for XP is part of the game. I do my best to balance it out by rewarding XP for non-violent solutions but that's the trouble: some people want violent solutions to everything. Barkeep won't give them a room? Kill the barkeep. You went to the wrong room? Kill the guy there and take his room. Violence for everything! Violence for the little things. Violence for the big things. Violence for the guards who don't let you enter the palace. Violence for the chickens wandering in the street. Violence for the drunkard who thinks they're a talented bard. Even when these things don't award XP, murderhobos kill them because they can (hence the murder part) and because they have no investment (hence the hobo part). Sure. Those are easy to run, and easier to still to keep out of murderhoboing. Mercenaries rely on a reputation for getting the job done. They get paid better and get better jobs the faster, cleaner and generally more efficient they are. Sure, they may piss off X town or Y city, but those cities still do business with the people who hire mercenaries (who are often wealthy nobles, traders and the like who rely on Town X or City Y to keep doing their business, even if they hire the party to take out a rival). Holy crusaders are similar. They're first and foremost connected to some kind of Holy Order. This Holy Order gives them well, orders. Kill those guys. Capture that place. Burn down this building. etc... Acting outside the orders, against the orders or killing without sanction gets them into trouble, from being revoked to possibly having the Order turn on you. The Order is more powerful than the players, has ways of keeping track of the players and their actions. And generally speaking in both cases: the rewards from sticking to the contract or following orders results in better XP and better loot as well as other benefits (such as increased rank and its privileges). In my experience, murderhobos are almost all, if not are chaotic evil (or call themselves chaotic neutral). I think when you start saying things like "operate largely under a murderhobo ethic" what you're really saying is that they're [I]not really [/I]murderhobos, but with a little push they could be. And really, ain't that true of real life even? Most [I]people[/I] do what they need to do to survive and with a little push, they might just do a lot worse. The fact that the line between "wandering minstrel" or "nomadic adventurer" is fine does not mean the line doesn't exist. It's an important element of more robust games and less dungeon-crawley games. Walking that line, straying from the line one way or the other is what makes for good role play. In my experience, players who disregard the line entirely do so purposefully and by extension, their characters do so purposefully. They are not simply adventuers who have fallen on hard times and are trying to climb back up. They're [I]players[/I] who immediately look for the bottom of the barrell and then revel in it. And that's part of the problem. It shouldn't be a "houserule" that commoners have neither XP nor loot. That has been, rather consistently, the type of player and character that has embodied the term. Characters who are not that type will almost immediately bite on any sort of extension of social standing, roots-establishment and so on. They have goals beyond "kill everyone I see". Personally, I'd call the Thorin and his dwarves refugees. They're not people who [I]don't want a home[/I] they're people who want [B]their home[/B] which was taken from them. They don't really initiate a lot of the killing either, though they are often attacked and then kill their attackers. I mean the whole quest was "lets get our home [I]back[/I]" As for the Fellowship, they spend a great deal of time [I]avoiding[/I] confrontation, especially since some of their enemies (the Nazgul) were like, super-way-more-powerful. Are they homeless? Not really. Almost every member of the Fellowship could have up and returned home if they wanted and they certainly weren't the type to start swinging their swords around when shopkeepers or guards didn't give them what they wanted immediately. The whole Fellowship often dodged off course because they wanted to stay someplace friendly. If your definition of a "murderhobo" is "anyone who has ever left home" I don't think your definition is helpful. [/QUOTE]
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