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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9178916" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I don't understand anything anymore here.How does 4e Minions feel like some novel form of D&amp;D &quot;cheating&quot; or &quot;artificial&quot; when (a) the rules are right there in front of you (so the decision-tree you're interacting with is robust and entirely transparent such that tactical and strategic choice is preserved...where is the &quot;cheating&quot;?) and (b) we've had various brands of HD related &quot;mook-gating rules&quot; forever with AD&amp;D 1e's Fighter, Paladin, Ranger vs less than 1 HD creatures and 2e's Heroic Fray rules (which both were derived from Chainmail) and the Sleep and Prismatic Spray spells and plenty of other things that don't just pop off the top of my head I'm sure.What is even happening here?&nbsp; 4e was &quot;artificial and video gamey (or whatever)&quot; but chugging potions by the palette like Gauntlet or Diablo in 5e or Healing Wandomatics in 3.x are both totally legit and immersive?I guess I'm just one of those &quot;Usual Suspects,&quot; right?&nbsp; Yeah, the kind that (a) likes information worked off of to be somewhere approaching accurate/correct and with context (not misrepresented or improperly reduced) and (b) likes standards to be closer to organized around first principles than they are to being wholly arbitrary (while simultaneously tacitly representing that someone's feels are outgrowths of objective properties of something rather than idiosyncratic to the user and their particular cohort).D&amp;D mook-gating rules aren't novel because they've been there since the beginning, and they certainly aren't &quot;cheating&quot; in any of the various iterations I'm aware of them.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 9178916, member: 6696971"] I don't understand anything anymore here. How does 4e Minions feel like some novel form of D&D "cheating" or "artificial" when (a) the rules are right there in front of you (so the decision-tree you're interacting with is robust and entirely transparent such that tactical and strategic choice is preserved...where is the "cheating"?) and (b) we've had various brands of HD related "mook-gating rules" forever with AD&D 1e's Fighter, Paladin, Ranger vs less than 1 HD creatures and 2e's Heroic Fray rules (which both were derived from Chainmail) and the Sleep and Prismatic Spray spells and plenty of other things that don't just pop off the top of my head I'm sure. What is even happening here? 4e was "artificial and video gamey (or whatever)" but chugging potions by the palette like Gauntlet or Diablo in 5e or Healing Wandomatics in 3.x are both totally legit and immersive? I guess I'm just one of those "Usual Suspects," right? Yeah, the kind that (a) likes information worked off of to be somewhere approaching accurate/correct and with context (not misrepresented or improperly reduced) and (b) likes standards to be closer to organized around first principles than they are to being wholly arbitrary (while simultaneously tacitly representing that someone's feels are outgrowths of objective properties of something rather than idiosyncratic to the user and their particular cohort). D&D mook-gating rules aren't novel because they've been there since the beginning, and they certainly aren't "cheating" in any of the various iterations I'm aware of them. [/QUOTE]

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