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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 5106654" data-attributes="member: 19675">The point of using a single word is to save myself the work of posting the same definition over and over again.That broad list are the definitions. First, I didn't want to put words in the mouths of everyone else who has used the term, so I didn't define any elements in particular, save the healing surges which are one of my personal sticking points.Second, as I've pointed out before, definition beyond that point is useless.  Specificity in no way further the potential for useful discussion because all you can do with that is attack someone's claim that something is videogamey...and that means you're attacking a person's personal perceptions of how the game made him feel.  How in the heck is that useful and productive?Third, an element's exclusivity or lack thereof doesn't matter.  if an element is more common in a MMORPG than in a P&P RPG, then its going to be more strongly associated with the MMORPG than with RPGs, and can validly be considered a "videogamey" element.Consider that yet another viable definition of videogamey, and you'll use 7 fewer words.Again- that is not what "I don't like 4Ed because it is videogamey" means.It means "I don't like something (4Ed) because it reminds me of something else (videogames)."  The sentence give you a direct comparison of 2 things, not a bald assertion of judgement.Consider this: "I don't like Nutella because it is hazelnutty."  You have the same kind of comparison.  You know what 2 things are being compared.  You don't know why the person dislikes hazelnuts...but does it really matter?  Are you going to be able to construct a logical argument why he should like hazelnuts, or why the hazelnuttiness of Nutella shouldn't be held against it?I don't think so.Its one thing to try to help someone understand rules, its entirely another to try to reason away someone's emotional response.If the definition of videogamey is that it is a game with too simplistic rules, then when someone shows up and says "I don't like 4e, it's too videogamey" then someone can reply with "I used to dislike it for that reason as well, but I found that the more you play the game, the more depth you discover in the rules.  It seems simplistic at first, but if you play it for a while, you'll see it isn't.  Give it a chance, I did...and now I have a lot of fun playing it."Again, the multiplicity of meanings is immaterial- many perfectly good words have dozens of definitions, like "<a href="http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/run" target="_blank">run</a>."BINGO!Now, ask yourself honestly, would greater specificity help the debate in any way?  Look at any item on that list you provided, and think about how you'd address any one of those objections.Now, ask yourself whether your counter to such a claim would be 1) welcome, 2) helpful, 3) likely to get the other party to change their opinion?The real reason is that "element X" reminds them somehow of videogames and they don't like that in an RPG.  It is that videogameyness itself that intrinsically puts them off the game.How does specificity help you do anything else but annoy them?  You'll know precisely what element it is that pushes their button...and then you get to push it!As I've stated before, that's not even close to the linguistic meaning of "I dislike 4Ed because it is videogamey."  There, I've compared 2 different things.What you've stated about blue is a comparison between one thing and a property of itself.  That would be like saying "I hate 4Ed because it contains characters in it."And the people who used the word that way were wrong for doing so...but they did it not just by saying it was videogamey, but rather by responding with those hurtful words when someone asked for greater specificity.IOW, it wasn't videogamey that got you pissed off, but the subsequent specificity that someone asked them to provide.And now, every time you see that word, you latch on to that single definition that some clod used rather than the multitude of other definitions that have been provided since.  Definitions that are critical of the game but not those who play it.Except 1) the word is not intrinsically a personal insult- it has a single insulting definition among many that is probably used by a minority of people who've used it, and 2) despite other definitions being provided, you continue to latch on to the single personal insult, and 3) no other single word has been suggested that conveys the simple message of "I dislike those elements of 4Ed that remind me of videogames."And I posit that NOBODY has solutions to the game being perceived as videogamey by certain people, making the discussion of particulars pointless.And I think that that is sufficient understanding.  Delving deeper is unlikely to be productive.(Has it been productive in this thread?)No, its simply an observation that the game has aspects that remind me of video games, and I don't like the nature of that reminder.Its bad in an entirely subjective and personal way.  The mechanic of healing surges makes a lot of sense, but its an element that will always remind me of videogames, and I don't want that.Simple answer: you can't.And if you look at your list of things that are videogamey and ask the same question, the answer is likely to be the same.You can't make something that reminds people of videogames less videogamey unless and until that element stops appearing in popular videogames.Its something beyond your control as a game designer or defender of the game. Balderdash!(I always wanted to use that word.)We're talking about a game that simulates magic and flying, fire-breathing lizards- IOW, it is by definition unrealistic.  Videogamey is a far more specific term because it tells you that I don't like an element because it reminds me about something from videogames.And again, this is far less accurate a complaint than videogamey.In my case, there always is: someone asks what the assembled minds of a given website thinks of 4Ed; someone asks if WotC can do anything to change non-adopters into 4Ed buying gamers, or some such, and the genie is out of the bottle.As yet, I've never just jumped into the 4Ed section of ENWorld and just spam-posted "4ED is videogamey!" in a dozen or so threads.When I'm in that forum, I'm generally looking for discussions of elements of 4Ed I can use elsewhere, or for those threads in which people are asking for things they like about the game (and in those threads, I stick to the positives).But if someone is asking for critiques, critiques I'll provide.</blockquote>

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