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<blockquote data-quote="steeldragons" data-source="post: 8756395" data-attributes="member: 92511">The answers, as diverse or interesting as they have been, are essentially all the same answers.The &quot;Simple&quot; Fighter is just what we all know. The &quot;Basic&quot; Fighter. The one with the most armor and most weapons options. The &quot;Combat&quot; class. What do they [need to] do?1) hit reliably well/often2) do reliably high -or higher than other classes- damage3) stays on their feet longest/hardy/tough/takes the hits due to a combo of having higher/more hit points than other classes, decent/better saves, and/or superior AC.That's all they need to do...and traditionally have done. [Know how to best] Hit stuff with weapons. Deal the damage. Stay on your feet/conscious.So, the &quot;Complex&quot; fighter needs to do more than that...or, more accurately, at a minimum do those three things with more &quot;complexity&quot; and, then, do things in addition to those three.So you need:1) things you do that make your hitting better/different than other times you hit - increase attack roll bonus, increase bonus against specific foes, weapon specializations (use &quot;reach&quot; weapons close, extra bow/thrown attacks, et al.), count attack as magical vs. creatures requiring magical weapons, etc...2) things you do that make your damage better/different than other times you deal damage -increase dice rolls in general, increase damage vs. specific foes, impose conditions, grapple/prone/trip, etc...3) things that keep you on your feet better/different and under different circumstances that other times you are staying on your feet -improving saves to particular effects, increases to AC, damage reduction in certain circumstances, extra/bonus &quot;second winds,&quot;etc...4) things that give the fighter non-personal combat techniques -commanding (doling bonuses to) others, battlefield/group tactics, etc...5) things that give the fighter non-combat skills -exploration, social, and/or knowledge- of various kinds.Call them &quot;stances.&quot; Call them &quot;exploits.&quot; Call them &quot;maneuvers.&quot; Call them &quot;feats.&quot; Whatever your reference point in the culture is or non-D&amp;D game you're drawing inspiration from, the idea is the same one... ADD stuff to how the FIghter does what the Fighter does.The &quot;Complex&quot; Fighter is the one with more option/player choices...to give the players complaining about &quot;page count&quot; or &quot;[people using magic] can do this! Why can't I?&quot; the feel that they have their lists of choices to go through and select...Giving every Fighter (regardless of subclass/background/theme trappings) their own list of &quot;stuff&quot; to choose from, the array of which increases as they level. Making every Fighter as different from each other as every Mage with a different list of spells in their spellbook.That seems to be all people want/are asking for. Seems...well, forgive the phrase, &quot;simple&quot; enough.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="steeldragons, post: 8756395, member: 92511"] The answers, as diverse or interesting as they have been, are essentially all the same answers. The "Simple" Fighter is just what we all know. The "Basic" Fighter. The one with the most armor and most weapons options. The "Combat" class. What do they [need to] do? 1) hit reliably well/often 2) do reliably high -or higher than other classes- damage 3) stays on their feet longest/hardy/tough/takes the hits due to a combo of having higher/more hit points than other classes, decent/better saves, and/or superior AC. That's all they need to do...and traditionally have done. [Know how to best] Hit stuff with weapons. Deal the damage. Stay on your feet/conscious. So, the "Complex" fighter needs to do more than that...or, more accurately, at a minimum do those three things with more "complexity" and, then, do things in addition to those three. So you need: 1) things you do that make your hitting better/different than other times you hit - increase attack roll bonus, increase bonus against specific foes, weapon specializations (use "reach" weapons close, extra bow/thrown attacks, et al.), count attack as magical vs. creatures requiring magical weapons, etc... 2) things you do that make your damage better/different than other times you deal damage -increase dice rolls in general, increase damage vs. specific foes, impose conditions, grapple/prone/trip, etc... 3) things that keep you on your feet better/different and under different circumstances that other times you are staying on your feet -improving saves to particular effects, increases to AC, damage reduction in certain circumstances, extra/bonus "second winds,"etc... 4) things that give the fighter non-personal combat techniques -commanding (doling bonuses to) others, battlefield/group tactics, etc... 5) things that give the fighter non-combat skills -exploration, social, and/or knowledge- of various kinds. Call them "stances." Call them "exploits." Call them "maneuvers." Call them "feats." Whatever your reference point in the culture is or non-D&D game you're drawing inspiration from, the idea is the same one... ADD stuff to how the FIghter does what the Fighter does. The "Complex" Fighter is the one with more option/player choices...to give the players complaining about "page count" or "[people using magic] can do this! Why can't I?" the feel that they have their lists of choices to go through and select... Giving every Fighter (regardless of subclass/background/theme trappings) their own list of "stuff" to choose from, the array of which increases as they level. Making every Fighter as different from each other as every Mage with a different list of spells in their spellbook. That seems to be all people want/are asking for. Seems...well, forgive the phrase, "simple" enough. [/QUOTE]

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