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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8756804" data-attributes="member: 87792">You've never actually said how. I haven't bought level up - but I have looked at what they <a href="https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QlkxsqUdH_KWResM1lh1Hzx4hqCRZkLXdOweRYIv9Eg/edit?usp=drivesdk" target="_blank">have presented for maneuvers</a>. And to be honest they look like a less engaging system than the Battlemaster's - or to be more accurate they look like ki points for a less mobile class, and I'd prefer the Battlemaster to what I've seen of the Level Up fighter. Complexity to me isn't power or flexibility. It's about how you approach the combat and that you have the tools and motivation to take different foes on in fairly different ways.All the fighter appears to do with Level Up's maneuvers in combat is the same thing that makes 5e combat its normal tedious and grindy self to the point I would simply rather not play than spend two thirds of my time in combat. You waddle up to your enemy and play patty-cake with them, spamming your best available attack until one or other of you falls over. It doesn't matter what type of foe you have. The increased crit range maneuvers (if you bother) work exactly the same way whether you are fighting a dragon or a gelatinous cube. Which means it's not complex so much as it is fiddly. Frankly the Battlemaster (especially using Tasha's maneuvers) can do very similar things, but the kinaesthetic nature of the superiority dice simply both feels good and is pretty simple and easy to keep track of. The battlemaster might only be 80% of what the Level Up fighter does - but it does it with a whole lot less effort.I'm going to give this one last attempt. To me there hasn't been a better fighter than the 4e one (I understand people who like the Warblade; it and the Crusader and the Bo9S are head and shoulders above anything in 5e or for that matter Pathfinder) but that doesn't mean the 4e fighter is some sort of platonic ideal. To me much of what makes the 4e fighter great can be summed up in two of the maneuvers: Tide of Iron and Sweeping Blow that on their own give you a tactical depth and level of engagement with the game world that is simply unmatched in 5e and 3.X alike. Tide of Iron is an At Will attack that you can use on every turn to push your foe five feet and then follow up into where they were while doing full basic damage. Most alternatives do more damage - but only a trivial amount more. (A 5e equivalent would be to give two Fighting Styles to a fighter but they could only use one at once, giving up the bonus from duelist or great weapon fighter).  And the key thing is that forced movement makes the difference between shooting on location and shooting against a green screen. If there's a pit trap that's been discovered it might as well not be there - just an X marked on the floor that no one will step on. Green screen movement. If there's forced movement then if there's a pit trap there there's actually danger of someone falling in it. If there's forced movement and you're fighting by a dock someone's probably going for a swim. The dock isn't just projected on a green screen. Having forced movement makes the world more real. And having forced movement easily accessible and from the fighter's square means that how the fighter stands on the battlefield matters and where you are fighting matters. And it of course opens up entire swathes of teamwork as you position the enemy for AoEs.And before someone complains "but the shove action exists", yes it does. Using the shove action means that the fighter, whose big thing is that they have been training with their weapons and are good at hurting people with them, decides to not actually hit someone but instead give up all their damage. It's normally a rookie move to give up all your damage. And the fighters with Tide of Iron, because they are a master of combat and the battlefield don't give up their entire attack.Sweeping Blow is an encounter ability that allows a fighter to attack everyone within five feet of them - essentially a whirlwind attack. But unlike Whirlwind Attack it can't be spammed relentlessly which is a good thing because the enemies won't always line up with respect to each other and the game does not zoom in notably further than 5 foot squares - but the master of battle should be able to see that it's not worth going for this time. (I'm not saying 'Encounter Powers' are the right way but some sort of semi-arbitrary limit on fighter advanced abilities reflecting their seeing opportunities others don't both make them more realistic and immersive, and means that you need to think rather than just spam your best attack - or even your best attack that you have the points remaining for). The second thing Sweeping Blow does is encourages you to take risks. Diving in to the middle of half a dozen enemies to hit them all will do an impressive amount of damage in total - but it also puts you out there and potentially facing a beat-down from those half dozen enemies. This sort of risk vs reward choice that encourages you to change your behaviour (rather than walk up to your first choice of foe and play patty-cake until they fall, just with a rider or two). It's a risk/reward choice where the availability of Sweeping Blow really changes your calculations.And before someone complains "but 5e fighters get multiple attacks. You can split them" splitting your attacks rather than focus firing is (other than in rare situations) a foolish choice. One dead target is one target that can't fight back; two wounded targets both can. As a rule of thumb damage on a secondary target is considered worth half that on the primary target. Bad choices are skill tests that add fiddliness rather than adding options.</blockquote>

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